Alternative fluids

[Prometheus]

I'm searching for "cheap" fluids for my water cooling kit, that wont freeze at sub-zero temps without the use of anti-freeze.

Any ideas?

I also need some help with condensation control in my chill chamber. Thought of adding silica beeds, but not sure if that would do the trick, and if so, how much it would take to do the job.

Thanks,

Prometheus

[Synthohol]

why wouldn't you use antifreeze? it has anti-foaming agents and anti bacterial/algea agents too.

also welcome to LN!:)

[Drake]

Sub-zero and cheap don't go together. I'd like to see what you have planned ;)

:D:DWELCOME:D:D to Liquid Ninjas, Prometheus!

[Prometheus]

Thanks for the welcome man. ;)

I use a Swiftech MCW5002-PT w/b, Hydor L30's, 1/2" lines, and of course, an AC unit to cool things down with. What I want, is to get my temps well below the freezing mark, without pump or line freeze-ups.

I doubt its going to be possible with what I have, but hey, no harm in trying eh?

I plan on insulating the AC unit so as to stop the condenstation, which hopefully will allow the chill unit to get to temps far below where they are now, which seems to be about -20c.

If you guys know a better route, please dont hessitate to let me know. I've done everything I can to get the load temps to slightly above 0C, but as yet, it just isnt hapnin. :(

The best I've managed was about 20c under full load, and that was a fluke because of the ice I had added to the chill unit chamber to get things cooled quicker.

[dicki]

just to see if i understand...

you have a sealed box with your heater core etc in it. pipes run from this to your computer. and the AC unit blows into the box cooling things down?

In this case you will not stop condensation within this box.

the air contains a lot of moisture so unless you remove the air you will not remove the moisture.

in the computer and on the tubes you will need to insulate.

take the motherboard out and cover all the sockets with tape, spray the whole thing with conformal coating for a insulating waterproof coating.

cut closed cell foam to fit the socket and a patch for the back (or buy the swiftech tec water proofing kit) and fit them around the socket holding it all in place with silicon gunk push this gunk into socket pins and the gap in the middle. refit everything and you'll be fully waterproof :)

for the pipes... thats a tricky one.. spray foam? pipe lagging?

dicki

[Prometheus]

I got it all worked out I think. Temps now are -8C at idle, and dont get past about 20C under a load, so I'm happy....for now...hehe!

Building the chamber was simple. I created duct to funnel the cold air directly through the heater cores, and then it returns to the chill coil of the AC unit, making one big cycle, completely inclosed.

I covered the assembly with an ice chest, and then sealed the whole thing off as tight as my tired a-- could make it.

Once I get it completely sealed so that no outside air can flow within the chamber, I think the silica beeds will take care of the condensation inside the chamber, leaving nothing but super chilled dry air passing through the heater cores....I hope..lol

Thanks for all the data on that. I did all those things long ago though. I lost three graphics cards to condensation, so believe me, I have the inside of the case, the mobo, and anything else that could possibly get wet sealed to the max. ;)

[Drake]

Pics!!! :D

[Prometheus]

I dont have a camera anymore I dont think. I looked all day to find it, and I think my 3 year old grandson may have found it, and well, you can guess the rest. I'll be lucky if I dont have to buy a new one. :(

I wanted to take pics today to show how I set this up from beginning to end as a reference for others who work on a limited budget, but obviously that didnt happen.

Never the less, let me get things tested so I know I'm not about to lie as to the results on this, and I'll send someone some screenies to post, or if I can, post them myself for you guys to check out.

Has anyone used the Prescott yet other than me? I need to check in on vcore settings and see what others are getting away with. Mines at 1.66, which to me, seems high from reading what others have posted on the net.

If I can go a notch higher, I might get it to the stability point I want it at, at this speed. It wants to go back to Windows during my 3DMark03 runs at this vcore, but at a notch higher, its fine. Just wondering if you guys had any experience, thoughts, etc on that topic.

Btw, thanks a lot guys for being ready to help. Its appreciated. ;)

[Synthohol]

ya know, i'm sitting here looking at a can of marvel mystery oil. i shook it and the oil is quite thin and the label says its supposed to flow without solidifying down to sixty degrees below zero.

damn, if i had a chiller, thats what i would try it JFTFoI.

[Prometheus]

The reason its not used is because it would penetrate the seals of the water blocks really fast. If it were a block machined from a single piece of metal, bored out properly, that would be a killer chemical to use, so point taken.

[Flybye]

Originally posted by Synthohol
ya know, i'm sitting here looking at a can of marvel mystery oil. i shook it and the oil is quite thin and the label says its supposed to flow without solidifying down to sixty degrees below zero.

damn, if i had a chiller, thats what i would try it JFTFoI.
How would you test the heat transferability of a liquid?

I was thinking.......stick a few different liquids in the microwave for 1 minute, and whoever has the highest temperature at the end of the minute would be the one that is able to absorb heat faster.

Does this make sense or am I just rambling :)

[Synthohol]

the oven would be a better test as the microwave only sends pindots of radiation to cause friction in the food or liquid it is heating, the friction is what causes heat to build in the microwave so i dont think its a fair test.

[Flybye]

So you think it's a valid test?

Stick X liquid in oven for x amount of time, and whoever has the highest temp transfers heat the most?

[Drake]

I don't think either test is valid, as that's heat transfer via radiation and not conduction. Maybe more like heat a pizza stone/cookie sheet and put a dish of liquid on it for the test.

[Prometheus]

Testing temps from the die, I get -4C at idle, and after running a load for 20 minutes (which isnt long enough I know, but didnt have the time to do more) with Quake 3, Need for Speed Underground, and Doom 3, I see temps of 28C.

I still cant find my camera, and even if I could, I'd just about be too emberassed to show anyone this "ghetto" rig...lol

I have a long way to go with the looks, but I can live with it for now I guess. The case is an Ahanix Platinum XP, with 2, 120mm Antec/115cfm fans in it, which will be replaced soon with a new plexiglass window, that wont be modded for fans this go-around.

Under the machine sits the AC unit, which is faced into the ice chest, and just enough room between to get the hoses through. This is sealed for now with foam, and duct tape, which will be covered completely with a wooden casing in the near future for astetics, and noise dampening.

There are now two heater cores on the CPU. One is a large core, that is approximately 1 1/2 times the size of my Black Ice. It sits flat against the cooling coil on the outside of the AC, with the smaller heater core placed on top of that, with a 150mm/240cfm fan blowing into them, forcing air through to the cooling coil, which in turn recycles it into the cooling chamber, and again through the heater cores.

I use a 3/8th ID copper tubing wound in two spirals placed directly behind the cooling coil on the AC. I also have a 1 gallon reservour on the GPU, with the pump inside the container, and the container is sealed. This also resides inside the chill chamber, keeping the returned water cycling to a cold water res.

This has been one hellova long project, but most of it in testing, and re-testing, scrounging up gear, etc. I think I've found my limit to how cold I can get things though with this rig, and thats gonna be about where it is now, "unless", I can get some serious fluid for the cooling system that wont freeze up below -10C.

You guys asked for pics, and I will get some, but it may be a few more days yet. In the meantime, can I send them to one of the admins to post, or get some help getting them on here maybe?

I'm crap with web stuff, so overlook my stupidity if you will.


Peace,
Prometheus

[Flybye]

I'm curious to see your setup, too :D

If you notice, each reply has an "Attach File" option. Just push the "Browse" button to look for your image, and when you Submit the reply, the file will automatically be uploaded for everyone to see in the thread.

[Prometheus]

Thanks for the info! It pays to ask doesnt it?...hehe!

Anyway, here are some screenies for now on temps and stats. I'll get a camera within the next few days and get some shots of it, whether its finished or not. Keep in mind the window will be replaced and the case for the chiller will be made to dress it up a bit asap.

[Synthohol]

sometimes i forget to click "attach file..."too:)

[Prometheus]

Originally posted by Synthohol
sometimes i forget to click "attach file..."too:)

LMAO!!!!


Lemme try this again.

[Prometheus]

Well, after trying that, I finally read below where it said what type of files are acceptable, and bitmaps arent in the list. Thats why it isnt posting it.

Gotta convert these to .jpeg and get them uploaded.

[Synthohol]

hey! very nice!
what can it do 1m Pi in? (super PI)

[Flybye]

3.9 out of a 3.0. wow :thumbsup:

And you get an extra cookie for the cool background :D

[Prometheus]

Originally posted by Synthohol
hey! very nice!
what can it do 1m Pi in? (super PI)

To be honest, I dont even know what that stands for...lol
You'll have to forgive me man, I'm just a dumb hick from Mississippi who can engineer some serious shit, but I have no formal education where computers are concerned.

I had never even touched one until about 6-7 years ago, and since then, its been mostly to play games, and to make em run like a bat outa hell...lol

Software is my weak point actually. I've educated myself to some degree on hardware, simply because thats more my forte.

Btw, thanks guys for the votes of confidence on my efforts. ;)

[Flybye]

Hey Prometheus, download this little file, unzip it, and run the SUPER_PI.EXE file.

ftp://pi.super-computing.org/windows/super_pi.zip

Once it's running, click on CALCULATE, select 1M from the dropdown menu, click OK, and wait. When it finshes with the calculation, it will tell you how many seconds it took. Then come back here and post it :)

My 2.4 at 2.6 took 52 seconds.

[Flybye]

I'm sure you'll let us know if you don't know how to unzip a file.

[Prometheus]

Here ya go.

[Synthohol]

34 seconds! thats awesome! :beerm8s:

[Synthohol]

oh also FYI, if you hold down ALT and hit printscreen it will only copy the foreground window instead of your whole desktop ;)

[Prometheus]

Originally posted by Synthohol
34 seconds! thats awesome! :beerm8s:

Thanks Synth. I'm pretty proud of it, even if it does look like a borg thats been in a bad, bad, wreck....lol

I think my next cooling system will have to a little easier to put together, and a little more serious though. I like what I have, but the temps arent ideal to get the max out of this chip. I need more voltage on my mem too I think. 2.85v is ok, but its not enought to keep it stable at higher overclocks.

[Prometheus]

I dropped the vcore to 1.63, and the temps came down with it. Its still stable, so I think with a little tweaking I can get it to -10c idle/15c load temps.

Time to celebrate I guess. Most of the work is over....for now...hehe :D

[Flybye]

Originally posted by Prometheus
Thanks Synth. I'm pretty proud of it, even if it does look like a borg thats been in a bad, bad, wreck....lol.....
LMAO!
I watch ST a good amount, so you can imagine the images that just went through my head :D

[dicki]

ha! nice work :) its good to see those kinda numbers on MBM isn't it :D

[Prometheus]

Originally posted by Flybye
LMAO!
I watch ST a good amount, so you can imagine the images that just went through my head :D

LMAO!!!

[Prometheus]

Originally posted by dicki
ha! nice work :) its good to see those kinda numbers on MBM isn't it :D

Thank you.

Yes, it is nice for a change. To top it off, I dont have any chill unit freeze ups anymore it seems. I think I finally got things sealed off to the point the condensation is at such a small amount, its insignificant.

I ran the crap out of it last night (this am really) with Q3, Doom 3, and NFS Underground, and its just plain bad :mad2::mad2::mad2:! My temps never went past 22c under a load of NFS Underground, and thats the one that has given me the most problems load wise with the water temps so I'm happy as hell.

I even let it get up to 15c idle by turning off the AC unit for about 20 minutes, and when I fired it back up, it only took approximately 5 minutes for it to reach -6c again!

I'll have to take things down to show how its set up on the inside when I take pics, but I think others will be able to benefit from my trial and error work maybe so it'll be worth it.

On a lighter note, this community seems to be a little more "mature" than most of the OC forums I've been a member of. Most are helpfull here, instead of sarcastic, or childish slam users.

Its refreshing to see this in a community of this nature. It means that knowledge, and wisdom arent hard to find, and even easier to swallow. ;)

Thanks guys.

[Synthohol]

from the *staff* of LN, we thank you for your kind words and do strive to be the best O/C W/C BBS out there!

spread the word:)

[Flybye]

Originally posted by Prometheus
......On a lighter note, this community seems to be a little more "mature"......
tRu DaT cUz wE R pHat yO!
diS cRiB iZ Da pHAteSt dAwG!

:D

[Prometheus]

LMAO!!!!!

[Prometheus]

I didnt post the memory info earlier, plus, I'm gonna push this thing to the limit speed wise just to see where it stops. I already hit 4010 with it, but I think I can sqeeze a tad more out of it now that temps are better/stable.

[Flybye]

Can you believe my cheap arse DDR400 PC3200 ram won't even run DDR400? Even by putting the default settings in the bios, the memory never reaches its rated speed :mad: which I know would be showing 200mhz.

[Prometheus]

Is your voltage where it should be on the mem? My GeIL wont get past 510mhz if I dont crank the voltage up on it to the max which on this mobo is 2.8, and reads 2.85 on MBM.

Well, I tried all I could to get this thing cranked to the max, and all I did was make the CPU weak I think. I dont want to take the vcore past 1.71, so I'm done pushing it until I go to a different chip.

Its starting to corrupt stuff on the drive, so even at the 3.9 oc, it may be pushing "this" chip too far. I've yet to make up my mind as to whether or not to back it down, or just let it run its course.

What would you guys do? I can replace the chip if it fries, but I really dont feel like doing more work on this setup if I dont have to.

[Synthohol]

flybye, why you runnin 5/4? 1/1 or 6/6 not work?

[Player0]

You could always try a different chip. Is it Prime95 stable? How are you testing stability?

[Flybye]

Originally posted by Synthohol
flybye, why you runnin 5/4? 1/1 or 6/6 not work?
Nope. Even at stock FSB speeds, this stupid POS ram won't reach it's rated speed of DDR400 even with the V cranked up all the way.

[Synthohol]

try 12.3.3.2 timings at 6/6 just for me and 11x200 ok?

[Flybye]

I don't wanna hijack this guy's thread anymore, so:
http://www.liquidninjas.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&postid=73874#post73874
:)

[Prometheus]

I appreciate your concideration, but I dont mind talking about your rig in this post. Its all good. ;)

[unacceptable_risk]

Hi prom. When I hit the bumpstops, I usually wind it back a notch, and start thinking about the next project/adventure.

My current little beast is an XP2500 running at 2.3 with corsair VS.
I am not quite done with this one, But I would rather not break it.

for interest sake, It ran 46seconds on that Super PI, but it was doing heaps of other things at the time.

[Prometheus]

I do the same thing. I wanted to get it tweaked out to the max, but its just not worth having to go to the trouble of replacing things. Once this thing got past the 250fsb mark, it screamed anyway, so I asked myself, "what would be the point?".

Also, I keep re-arranging my water pumps/heater cores in different configurations to see what works best, so until I get all that worked out it would be redundant to take it past the 260fsb its stable at now.

I have 4 different heater cores now, and combo's are another issue to work through. I want to perfect this chill chamber too, which wont get done until I get the tools/parts I need to complete it.

The best I've seen temp wise on the chiller is -3C air temp, which is good, but it should be about -16c or better. I have lots to do before I get there, but it'll happen, one way or the other. ;)

[Flybye]

Ok, some new things I've discovered....

I've been reading about people using denatured alcohol, windshield washer fluid (glycol based but less concentrate than antifreeze & no corrosion protection), and some other exotic liquids.

I've read a lot of people using the denatured alcohol, but still don't know the advantage of using a 50/50 mix of it with antifreeze as oppsed to a 50/50 mix of water and antifreeze.

You guys ever heard of this stuff?

[Prometheus]

I've tried mixes of 20% alcohol, 20% water, and 60% antifreeze, and several other configurations % wise, and what I ended up with is just a plain mix of antifreeze/water in a 75/25 ratio.

That seems (at least in my machine) to run more stable, and without having to worry about seals and pump parts deterioration.

Certain mixes I tried gummed up pumps ruined 2 impaler) when the water got to 0c or below. I dont know if thats just a result of the alcohol or whatever, I just know it didnt work for me.

I do know alcohol will dry seals and corrode metals quickly. Between that and what happened with my attempts at using it, I chose not to anymore.

[Prometheus]

Originally posted by Flybye
I've read a lot of people using the denatured alcohol, but still don't know the advantage of using a 50/50 mix of it with antifreeze as oppsed to a 50/50 mix of water and antifreeze.

You guys ever heard of this stuff?

Sorry I didnt really answere the question you asked in my prior post.

I think the advantage would be that the alcohol is thiner, lighter, wont freeze, and acts as a thiner for the antifreeze as temps start thickining it.

[Flybye]

So possible corrosion vs flow.
Hmm.............. LOL
Decisions decisions :P

[Prometheus]

In this persons opinion, the margin of gain, does in no way justify the use of such a volatile/destructive chemical.

In reality, the alcohol only goes so far to thin the fluid (depending on ratio). At a certain point, you end up with the same thing anyway.

Dude, my temps are now at -10c with this Prescott. How much more is needed to do the job? I'm not trying to sound negative, or sarcastic, but hey, it takes getting thing a lot lower temp wise to get more than I have out of one.

Theres kind of a point that you come to, where you have to get -20 or better to get stuff cranked to its max, and even then, you have to deal with stability issues.

Concider this maybe. Do what I did, get a TEC waterblock, a small frig, and a 110v air conditioner, cut off the bottom of the frig door, incert the face of the AC unit, seal it, use the top part of the door thats left "as" a door to access, set up your heater core(s), pump(s), and whatever else you can put in there that wont be effected by mild condesation or severe cold.

Fans can be a pain with a chiller. Most have a thermal limit of -10c, so therein lies a problem. The air coming out of the blower area of the AC will produce temps of -20c in a seal invironment such as what I described, so, you make sure you get fans with a lower thermal operating temp, such as the YS Tech 120x38mm/130cfm fans.

I just got two of these things, and they are quieter than my Antec 120x38mm/115cfm fans, plus, they operate at temps of -20c.

They also have an extremely high pressure rating (something like 4.5 I think), so they literaly ram the air through the heater cores, whether the heater core likes it or not...lol

My temps are more than acceptable is what I guess I'm getting at, and its not hard to do. I have my rig set up now where I'm not so ashamed of it, and I'm going to borrow a digital cam to take some pics of this thing so you guys can use the idea's if you like.

I cant say its astetically pleasing to look at the AC and the frig, but its no major eye sore either, and the work it does, to me, justifies the use of each. Not to mention I only spent 95-110 bucks on some serious chilling capability.

The mixes to me just arent worth it. Too much risk, not enough justification for a person who doesnt have money to burn with experimentation. ;)

[Prometheus]

Almost forgot about this. I managed temps of -24c at default settings with my chiller on this Prescott 3.0 .

OC'd to 260fsb with a vcore of 1.66, I get temps of -10 to -12c idle, and 14 to 20c load.

Does it get any better than that on water cooling? I think so. I intend to find out soon too. I have new fans, new placements of heater core, and new tuping for flow rate.

I also set up a redundant fan inside the chiller to circulate the air directly off the chill module of the frig, so temps inside my chill case are reaching -8c!

I may be able to reach -14c idle with my OC soon. We will see. :D

[Flybye]

Yep yep. Sure enough, these other guys mentioned alcohol can be very destructive against certain types of plastic.

Antifreeze & distilled H2O it is :)

[Prometheus]

I dont know all the pro's and cons of alcohol, but I do know when mixed with other chemicals it can produce some radical effects on metals, plastics, etc.

For one, it will "fully" nulify any lubricant you have in your water cooling system just by being mixed with it. I think that, and the plastic parts on the impaler being melted caused my two pumps to fail and need impaler replacement.

I found gaulding on the shaft from heat, when the water temp was way below freezing, so that made me suspect the alcohol since it was the only "odd" chemical in the mix.

I also noticed that plastic parts were dry rotted, and these pumps were new, like in 2 weeks old new! Not possible.

One other side effect was the strong presence of fumes in the res. This made me leary in itself. The fumes seemed strong enough to ignite, although I didnt test that theory to see if I was correct...lol

All in all, I wouldnt use it again even if it was the last fluid on earth. I'd go back to air first...hehe

Keep in mind though, that I dont know jack about chemicals, only what I see, and what I suspect is happing can I comment on, so this whole post can be concidered the guess work on just one ignorent person. ;)

[Prometheus]

I found a few old pics to post, but theres a lot thats been changed since these were taken, but it gives you guys some idea of what the rig looks like.

[Prometheus]

more

[Prometheus]

Thought I'd try this link to our clan site where the pics are posted. If it works great, but if not, sorry.

http://www.clanmk.ca/html/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=505

[Flybye]

Can't wait for the other pics of the refrigeration system :)

From what I understand, you have an AC unit blowing directly onto the Rad?

[Prometheus]

Originally posted by Flybye
Can't wait for the other pics of the refrigeration system :)

From what I understand, you have an AC unit blowing directly onto the Rad?

Yeah. I have the AC unit ducted to a heater core that is sandwitched between 2 YS Tech 130cfm 120mm fans, and I also have a dual 120mm heater core on the face side of the chill coil in the front of the AC unit.

I also keep 1 YS Tech 120mm/130cfm fan on it as well to force return air through that heater core.

I constantly re-arange that configuration to see what works best, and as yet, what I just descibed seems to be more "efficient" (not necessarily colder at idle) than any I've tried so far.

Keep in mind that the AC front is placed inside a mini fridge, which is functional. This adds another cooling system in itself, but only serves to provide reinforcement for the one I use by allowing me to circulate "that" air inside the chamber, helping to stabalize temps under loads.

[Prometheus]

Hope nobody minds too much if I ask this question here, but I need to know which of the 9800 pro's (other than just the fact its Sapphire) have the R360 core.

Is there a way I can tell before I buy or is it just luck of the draw?

[Flybye]

How big is the interior of the minifridge?

Reason because.....
Have you ever thought of/tried using a high velocity automotive fan?

For example this 8" fan with a 800cfm rating:

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=PRM%2D19128&N=120+4294924500+4294924499+308059

Duct from AC to fan then from fan straight onto the radiators. I'm figuering maybe the noise from the fan won't be too bad since it will be in the fridge. Maybe put the heatcores in a V configuration with the fan right infront of them.

This V configuration works great for us RX-7 guys :D A very efficient upgrade is to basically install our intercooler and radiator in a V configuration with the mouth opening towards the front. Both basically scoop up the incoming air, and neither transfer any warm air to the other since one isn't behind the other.

Oh, and I have no clue on the 9800 question :)

[Prometheus]

The fridge is 16' wide X 24' high. This is the interior measurement, but the lower half is comsumed by the AC, heater cores, fans, and hose so there just isnt any room down there.

The top has the frig chiller which takes up about 1/3 of that space, and then there are the hoses that come down from the top of the fridge near the center which would take up a seroius area, but could be re-routed.

I think the best option is going to be the removal of the fan assembly in the AC, seal off the fan motor hole, use some 230cfm/172?mm fans to circulate the air through the chill coil, and have the heater cores sandwitching "it" in the process.

Another advantage I have found, is to have as many ways to absorb the cold air as possible. In other words, the more heater cores, the better. I've used wound 1/2 copper tubing in the setup, and it worked really well when added to the smaller heater core.

I want to try to set up another two heater cores inline with the ones I have now, and of course increase the air flow as I go.

Linking the heaters cores I have found is also import as to which order its done. For instance, if the heater core that sits against the chiller is the last in line (feeds CPU), temps arent as low, even though the air flow is just as high as on the smaller heater core.

Changing the order to allow the smaller heater core that is ducted cools temps as much as 3-4C better.

Reversing the placement of the heater cores (large ducted to outlet/small against chiller coil) doesnt cool as well as the small heater core in that possition does. You would think it would be the other way around, but it hasnt been.