Under God

[EQarigon]

I saw your Gay Marriage forum and really expected to see a flame war. I was impressed to see a hot topic like that not become one. I thought I would add a new hot topic to discuss such as the Pledge of Allegiance.

What are your thoughts are arguments over the "under God"

Little history on the Pledge.
http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfc_pledge.html

[EQarigon]

What are your thoughts are arguments over the "under God"

Wouldnt let me edit .....are = or :P

[wfarid]

well it shouldnt be under god, because of Seperation of church and state, but anything else just sounds funny... I'm an athiest but i still say jesus christ and my god, even though i don't really mean it... so i guess the entire under god thing shouldn't be made into such a big deal. If you want to skip that part or not even say the pledge of allegiance, or say one nation under LSKJFs , you have the right to do so. That is waht is great about the US.

[Denovin]

all i can see is a bunch of kids growing up hating the country they live and and not respecting it. I cannot comment further as it just pisses me off.

[DCMan]

well, i am in the UK so it may not be such an issue over here as over there... but i did watch a load of stuff on it last night. All I could draw from it is surely there are more important things to spend money on than arguing about something like that?? $0.02.

:)

[Gregorach]

I've gotta say, the whole pledge of allegience thing gives me the creeps. Whenever I see it or hear it, it always reminds me of those Hitler Youth propaganda films. I just can't imagine why a free country would need such a thing. I wouldn't swear allegience to the Queen, not if you paid me...

While you may have the option of skipping all or part of the pledge, it must be very difficult from a social point of view. You know what kids are like - give 'em the least excuse and they'll tear each other to shreds. If you're already a target (say becuase you practice a different religion) then being the only kid in class not reciting the pledge really isn't going to help. Starting every single schoolday with an ordeal really doesn't help your long-term mental health...

[dicki]

if i were "forced" to say it, it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to me... as far as i'm concerned any promise made under duress is not binding ;)

i have to say it creeps me out too and i also don't believe many people would go along with it... when the sticky brown stuff hits the fan you protect your self and your own and bugger everyone else!

and the idea of getting god involved... the americans always say religion and the state are seperate but in just about everyone of george dubya's speechs that i've seen he mentions god and it makes me cringe... religion is a crutch for the people who can't handle the fact that there might not be anything after this little life. get over it. don't run a country based on some of the missrepresented teachings in a book thats probably as truthfull as the lord of the rings (read the silmarrillion if you want good "fables") and religion is often used to justify some of the most hideous crimes ever committed by the human race!

my "religion" is generally "relaxed agnostic" (meaning i'm happy to be convinced but really couldn't care less) its a very easy going "religion" with no rules except for the ones that let you operate in todays society. organised religion in my opinion was invented purely to control the peasents (most christian celebrations were borrowed from paganism for instance to get them to think church was fun and hand over thier crops... and the idea of the jews not eating shellfish / bottom feeding animals was due to the pollutants in the water killing thier people and has now become a matter of faith).

i get the feeling i'm going off topic so i'm going to shut up now :D

[Synthohol]

228 years ago this nation was "founded" in a time when morals and ethics were quite different than the ones we exhibit today.
in my opinion, the debate should be "should we adjust all our laws or expectations or legal guidelines to reflect such?"
Sure I say the pledge of allegience in public in full, it dosent mean i HAVE to believe in all of it (the under God part) as an agnostic, i honestly believe that the world will turn into a kind of world portrayed in "The running man."
to me, religeon is about hope, and reducing the fear of death and what may come after.
take away the peoples hope and you will have desperate anarchy.

I would like to say more but i have to get to work...

[Gregorach]

Couple of very good points there Synth.

Personally, I tend to think that any culture that doesn't adapt is dead. Change is the only constant of human society, and try to fight against it only makes things worse. Trying to hang on the the attitudes of a bygone era is like trying to swim against a rip-tide.

I see what you mean about hope, but there are sources for hope other than religion. To my mind, the hope religion offers is like the hope that lottery tickets offer - it may be better than nothing, but it's not as good as actually doing something to change your situation. There's an argument that false hope is worse than no hope at all, because the latter situation is so dire that it forces you to do something about it. True, there's nothing you can do about death, but you don't have to fear it - fear doing nothing with your life first!

Nonetheless, I think you've hit on one of the great attractions of religiousity from a ruler's point of view - it helps to keep the established social order intact.

Dicki - you are so right about the Silmarillion! :) I'll take it over the Bible any day of the week. :)

[spldart]

I say leave "Under God" in.

I'm not religious but I do miss the U.S. of old. Not only what it was like when I was much younger but what it was like a long time ago (from Grandfather stories).

[Gregorach]

Was it ever really that great? Back in the good ol' days of the Great Depression, the Oklahoma Dust Bowl, segregation, institutional racism, forced sterilisation programs, lynchings, no weekend, no paid vacations, no minimum wage... ? I mean, it doesn't sound that great...

Did the mythical America ever really exist?

[wfarid]

naw man, its just what poeple say when they think that we are way worse right now that we were before... which is totally untrue as greg pointed out... We are a progressive society, we are constantly bettering ourselves and improving ourselves (for the most part) and hopefully this trend will continue, and one day kids won't know or understand hate based on color of your skin, sexual orientation, or whatever. But thats just being idealistic, which isn't THAT bad sometimes...

[Player0]

My mother sais the same thing all the time 'things were better before'. Yeah, she grew up in the 60s and 70s. Great time there. College kids getting shot and killed by the gov't, racist beatings, assisnations, vietnam, etc.

I stopped saying the "pledge" in sixth grade when I developed a mind of my own. No one is forced to say it.

I will raise my kids to be tolerant, not to ***** about every god damn little thing, and to realize that they are above such petty bickering.

I dont care if it stays in or not, if my kids are intelligent, they will know that saying something and living it are two different things.

The masses are religious, I understand that and am tolerant of that even if my beleifs are different or conflict. And, in terms of speaking of 'the masses', the more moral guidance they receive, right or wrong, the better.

[Player0]

See? I used GOD too ;)

[Synthohol]

to breifly continue....
200 yrs ago there were no spacecraft, missiles, aids, computers and a whole slew of stuff that has made a "God fearing society" question their existence and raise doubts as to humans place on earth.
I can only tell you about my doubts in a higher power like children dying with cancer or being sexually abused. if the God i was raised upon would let those thing happen... who needs god...
any friend of bill w. will tell you you dont need a diety to believe in something.
now 200+ years later, the "Fear" is gone for most and has no plans to return.
the foundation that this country was founded upon "under god" i think should be left alone along with its P.O.A. simply because i have a CHOICE what to believe but in order to not insult others whom still believe in god, i will continue reciting the P.O.A. in full in public.

fwiw, the millions of folks who crunch SETI, "should" be agnostics or athiests as god fearing folk are not permitted by the KJ bible to think outside the box and have suspicions of ET beings running about as that would seem to negate the feeling of comfort supported by religion and the ideals that humans are the superior race and will rule the earth forrever.
i know thats a bit much but i have so much to say in opinion form we dont have time to deal with me :)

as usual, if my opinions offend you i apologize for that, not for what i believe or dis-believe :) but that i have offended...

[speculative]

Sorry I can't read the whole thread, but I'm studying Machiavelli for comps so I'll add this: According to Machiavelli, no "real" state would ever be "under God," but instead "beside God," because God is no better or worse than the state. (Isaiah Berlin elaborates in his essay, "The Question of Machiavelli.") The tradition of Western Thought in science, religion, everything, is that there is an "ultimate answer," i.e. 42, that will solve everything. Like the "Unifying Theory" in science where they are looking for the one equation that will supposedly solve everything from the big bang forward and into the future. Machiavelli basically fires a redeemer @ Western Thought and says such a thing doesn't exist, and that in fact there are competing systems of morality.

I.e. you can either be a moral Christian and refuse to fight in a war or you can be a moral President and nuke Hiroshima, but you absolutely cannot be both.

-spec

[spldart]

Originally posted by Gregorach
Did the mythical America ever really exist?

Yes. It did.

[Drake]

Again, I feel I cannot contribute much because I have not lived long enough to formulate my own concrete opinions on the matter, but just thought I'd add what I could. By state law, we have to get up, place our hands on our hearts, and recite the Pledge of Allegience along with the Texas Pledge (http://k-12.pisd.edu/elemcurr/elemss/txpledge.htm) together with our school's principal, then follow it with a minute of silence. The only way out of it is too bring in a note signed by your parents saying you are exempt from this.

Not that any teacher bothers to enforce it. Were that the case half of every class would be an offender.

[ralf_c]

i used to recite the pledge of allegiance with my class mates when i was in middle school but by the time i was in highs school nobody forced me to recite it, i would just ignore the daily ritual. for some reason it never meant anything to me.

[WackyComputer]

I was home Schooled, and I was never asked by Church or State to do or say anything that I didn't want to do or say.
Thanks Mom! :)

[spldart]

Sounds like Machiavelli was a numbskull ;)

[Synthohol]

Doesn't he make perfume?
/pun

[tripodal]

Originally posted by ralf_c
i used to recite the pledge of allegiance with my class mates when i was in middle school but by the time i was in highs school nobody forced me to recite it, i would just ignore the daily ritual. for some reason it never meant anything to me.


This is the EXACT reason this whole debate exists. People who want the pledge to stay as it is, dont necessairly believe that it would be wrong to take out "under god". For that matter we could just recite the whole thing backwards. ITS really totally irrelevant what the words are.

The whole point is for you to develop an american spirit that loves your country. To be reminded that this IS the greatest country on earth. All of our evils (murder, rape, child abuse) is all afforded by out prosperity. This things cannot exist in lesser countries as people dont have time to worry about it.

I personally dont care about "under god". People who believe in thier religon believe that all good things flow from whatever they believe to be true. I know what I believe, and when I say the pledge I try to remember how lucky I am that I dont live in china or africa starving and afraid of my own government.

Damn in my youth i'd been stopped aroudn 6 times for driving w/o a license. forget that it took 4 years for them to catch me.
I'd a been shot in another country.

[Denovin]

I Heartily agree with that. I say the pledge, and I mean it, I meant it before I was a Christian, I love my country, if we were invaded Id die for my country. Everytime I hear the Star Spangled Banner, and the pledge of allegience I get that feeling of blood rushing through my vains (sorta like in braveheart when he throws his sword out after his speech).

I imagine the millions of people that have BLEED for OUR country.

I imagine the hundreds of thousands that have DIED for OUR country.

I feel that those who dont RESPECT OUR country, should leave it.

I feel that by not saying the pledge you are dishonering those millions of people that have bleed/died and sweat to built create and make our country.

I am not proud of alot of things our country has done. Though just like my life, I wouldnt have it anyother way, or I would not be the person I am today.

I agree with our choice to go into Iraq. I think Bush is doing an excellent job as president, people can say the economy has been worse with him in charge, but that is the LARGEST load of BS ever. We are and have been overdue for not a ressession but a depression. If you look at how economy is charted out, there are usuelly 2 recessions before a depressions, both fairly low dips, we just climbed out of our 4th or 5th.

It brings tears to my eyes when MY own country men spit on the flag, by teaching the children to hate (the opposite of not loving is to hate) such a beautiful country.

maybe I only feel this way because my dad gets pissed off at me when I dont vote or because my grandfathers both fought in wars, my grandmother and her sister helped build airplanes and because they would all disown me if I ever even felt like I hated this country.

I pledge allegience, to the flag, of the United States of America, and through the Republic for which it stands, One Nation, Under God, Indivisible, for Liberty, and Justice for all.

If any of you actuelly read some parts of the bible, and had understood the history of the story around Jesus, it might change your hole idea about it. Religion isnt a crutch, its an understanding of something I want in real life with real people. I want to love my neighbor and have him treat me as I wish to be treated. I wish to not have to lock my doors, have passwords on 18million things, be able to vote and know my vote counts, not feel cheated. I strive to teach others this because wither it is a divine way, Gods teachings jesus teachings means nothing, its the principle of being WITH nice people, learning from NICE people to be more nice, and to teach others to be nice and live in harmony.

I think Ive said enough

[Player0]

I feel that by not saying the pledge you are dishonering those millions of people that have bleed/died and sweat to built create and make our country.

I am not a dog that barks on command, and I do NOT have to utter this meaningless phrase to myself over and over again in order to honor this country. I am quite above the need to say something in order to beleive it. Like it or not, the pledge is propaganda, and if you saw someone in a different country doing it, you'd probably think they were brainwashed and half-crazy.

I imagine the millions of people that have BLEED for OUR country.

I imagine the millions that have bleed for their own self-interests.

I imagine the hundreds of thousands that have DIED for OUR country.

I imagine the hundreds of thousands who have died needlessly for the self-interests of those others.

I feel that those who dont RESPECT OUR country, should leave it.

And I beleive that anyone who feels that our country is perfect will do NOTHING to help improve it. And that is the real crime.

I love my country, if we were invaded Id die for my country.

I would die right beside you, even though my beleifs are radically different, I am not a criminal, and I will not let my country go to the dogs. Why do some people feel its a crime to criticize this country and want to make it a better place?

Beleiving that this is the best country to live in on the planet? Based on what? Most people who have said that have never been outside the states. What about Canada or the UK or Australia (which are all nearly the same thing). There are MANY different ways to live your life, and just because you are used to the american way of life, and other cultures seem strange, doesn't make theirs better or worse really. Any first world country will be pretty similar to the US in terms of laws really, Germany, Japan, Italy. I dont know. Why are we any better than those places?

I am not a history buff, but theres one thing that is CRYSTAL clear on this planet - the dominance of countries comes and goes. There is NO way that the US will remain a world power. It's not possible based on historical data. Does this happen because we're all raised to beleive in our superiority, so we don't bother trying to be better anymore? Or is it just the rest of the world chipping away at us. Or does the tide of power change quickly as the result of some way or coup?

I dont know, the people who think the US was perfect as written 200 years ago will be sorely bemused when things get so bad that they HAVE to change.

[Synthohol]

i found this and thought i should post it...




The Pledge Of Allegience....


I Pledge Allegience To The Flag Of The United States Of America, And To the Republic For Which It Stands, One Nation Under God,INDIVISIBLE,With Liberty,And Justice For All!

I - - Me; an individual; a committee of one.
Pledge - - Dedicate all of my worldly goods to give without self-pity.
Allegiance - - My love and my devotion.
To the Flag - - Our standard; Old Glory ; a symbol of Freedom; wherever she waves there is respect, because your loyalty has given her a dignity that shouts, Freedom is everybody's job.
United - - That means that we have all come together.
States - - Individual communities that have united into forty-eight great states. Forty-eight individual communities with pride and dignity and purpose. All divided with imaginary boundaries, yet united to a common purpose, and that is love for country.
And to the Republic - - Republic--a state in which sovereign power is invested in representatives chosen by the people to govern. And government is the people; and it's from the people to the leaders, not from the leaders to the people.
For which it stands
One Nation Under God- - One Nation--meaning, so blessed by God.
Indivisible - - Incapable of being divided.
With Liberty - - Which is Freedom; the right of power to live one's own life, without threats, fear, or some sort of retaliation.
And Justice - - The principle, or qualities, of dealing fairly with others.
For All - - For All--which means, boys and girls, it's as much your country as it is mine.

[Player0]

Arent there a couple more than 48 states now?

Of course, after living in NY most of my life, I'm pretty sure the same rules don't apply here ;)

[EQarigon]

Incase you havent read this before here is the actual history and the different changes of the Pledge

The October 11, 1892 Columbus Day celebration of the 400th Anniversary of the discovery of America was planned for years in advance, and anticipated much as modern Americans look forward to and plan for the advent of a new century. The United States had recovered from most of the effects of its Civil War that began 30 years earlier, and people from around the world were flocking to the "Land of Opportunity". The previous year almost a half million immigrants had entered the United States through the Barge Office in Battery Park, New York and on New Years day of 1892 the new Federal Bureau of Receiving's station at Ellis Island had opened.

Two men interested in both education and planned Columbus Day celebrations around our Nation's 44 states were Francis Bellamy and James Upham. To this day it is still unknown which of the two men actually authored the words that were to become the Pledge of Allegiance. It was published anonymously and not copyrighted. James Upham was an employee of the Boston publishing firm that produced "The Youth's Companion" in which it first appeared. Francis Bellamy was an educator who served as chairman of the National committee of educators and civic leaders who were planning the Columbus Day activities. What we do know for certain is that the words first appeared in the September 8, 1892 issue of "The Youth's Companion", and a month later more than 12 million school children recited the words for the first time in schools across the nation. Our Pledge of Allegiance was born, but like anything new, it took many years to "reach maturity", and underwent several changes along the way. That first Pledge of Allegiance read:

I pledge allegiance to my Flag,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

October 11, 1892


After the Columbus Day celebration the Pledge to the Flag became a popular daily routine in America's public schools, but gained little attention elsewhere for almost 25 years. Finally, on Flag Day - June 14, 1923, the Pledge received major attention from adults who had gathered for the first National Flag Conference in Washington, D.C. Here their Conference agenda took note of the wording in the Pledge. There was concern that, with the number of immigrants now living in the United States, there might be some confusion when the words "My Flag" were recited. To correct this the pledge was altered to read:

I pledge allegiance to my the
Flag of the United States,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

June 14, 1923


The following year the wording was changed again to read:

I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

June 14, 1924


The Pledge of Allegiance continued to be recited daily by children in schools across America, and gained heightened popularity among adults during the patriotic fervor created by World War II. It still was an "unofficial" pledge until June 22, 1942 when the United States Congress included the Pledge to the Flag in the United States Flag Code (Title 36). This was the first Official sanction given to the words that had been recited each day by children for almost fifty years. One year after receiving this official sanction, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that school children could not be forced to recite the Pledge as part of their daily routine. In 1945 the Pledge to the Flag received its official title as:

The Pledge of Allegiance

The last change in the Pledge of Allegiance occurred on June 14 (Flag Day), 1954 when President Dwight D. Eisenhower approved adding the words "under God". As he authorized this change he said:

"In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."


This was the last change made to the Pledge of Allegiance. The 23 words what had been initially penned for a Columbus Day celebration now comprised a Thirty-one profession of loyalty and devotion to not only a flag, but to a way of life....the American ideal. Those words now read:

I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.
June 14, 1954



In 1892, 1923, 1924 and 1954 the American people demonstrated enough concern about the actual words in the Pledge to make some necessary changes. Today there may be a tendency among many Americans to recite "by rote" with little thought for the words themselves. Before continuing with our tour, let's examine these 31 words a little more thoroughly.

I Pledge Allegiance I Promise to be faithful and true (Promise my loyalty)
to the flag to the emblem that stands for and represents
of the United States all 50 states, each of them individual, and individually represented on the flag
of America yet formed into a UNION of one Nation.
and to the Republic And I also pledge my loyalty to the Government that is itself a Republic, a form of government where the PEOPLE are sovereign,
for which it stands, this government also being represented by the Flag to which I promise loyalty.
one Nation under God, These 50 individual states are united as a single Republic under the Divine providence of God, "our most powerful resource" (according to the words of President Eisenhower)
Indivisible, and can not be separated. (This part of the original version of the pledge was written just 50 years after the beginning of the Civil War and demonstrates the unity sought in the years after that divisive period in our history)
with Liberty The people of this Nation being afforded the freedom to pursue "life, liberty, and happiness",
and Justice And each person entitled to be treated justly, fairly, and according to proper law and principle,
for All. And these principles afforded to EVERY AMERICAN, regardless of race, religion, color, creed, or any other criteria. Just as the flag represents 50 individual states that can not be divided or separated, this Nation represents millions of people who can not be separated or divided.

Thus it is that when you Pledge Allegiance to the United States Flag, You:
*Promise your loyalty to the Flag itself.
*Promise your loyalty to your own and the other 49 States.
*Promise your loyalty to the Government that unites us all,
Recognizing that we are ONE Nation under God,
That we can not or should not be divided or alone,
And understanding the right to Liberty and Justice belongs to ALL of us.

[spldart]

GD Hippies!!!

[wfarid]

nice... wow... see the whole under god thing should just be taken out... lol... EQarigon i think u might have just shut everyone up...

[Denovin]

I dont have much of a problem with or without it, my problem is not LEARNING it at all. No we shouldnt be forced to say it, but we should atleast learn it, and its meaning.

[EQarigon]

One year after receiving this official sanction, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that school children could not be forced to recite the Pledge as part of their daily routine. That was in 1943.

[Synthohol]

Originally posted by Denovin
I dont have much of a problem with or without it, my problem is not LEARNING it at all. No we shouldnt be forced to say it, but we should atleast learn it, and its meaning. at the very least, i agree with that statement.
at least in n.j., schools force a 2nd language on their students, it is mandatory. i think that it is a nice gesture but mandatory? i want my kids to have the option but that choice has been taken away from them/us. i still support them learning one though:)

[Denovin]

in most states its a requirement to learn a second language to graduate high school.

[Drake]

We have to have 3 full credits in a secondary language to graduate on the state 'distinguished' plan.

[Player0]

Who ever said highschool wasn't supposed to be a waste of time?

I think a lot of the second-language program was to fight some of the ethnocentrism that plagues this country. The modern world is growing smaller and smaller as technology improves, so it's important to be multi-cultural in order to compete.

If you want to talk about a waste of time, how about being graded in Gym. I liked Gym, but having to be graded in that was silly. Also, I *hated* history classes, and economics/government classes. I always liked math, but all of that seems to have been a waste as well, even if Im a damn computer programmer.

[Denovin]

If you hadnt taken those classes, you wouldnt have a word to say in these discussions.

[Player0]

Which doesnt mean it was any much less a waste of time ;)

[Gabriel]

My absurd $.02 as always.

http://www.polarisconcepts.com/no_god.gif



PS Lots of funny signs at their homepage, http://www.terminalpacketloss.com/pictoz/thumbnailgallery.shtml


I will have the Octopus one at work tomorrow.

[Burnt Offering]

I have to say the thought of people WANTING to take out the simple "Under God" phrase out of the pledge scares me to death. Why? Because who then dictates whats wrong and whats right? You? Me? If you take God out of everything then what is our moral compass? The way I see it is this. There are the people in the world who want God out of everything to justify their wrong doing. I mean, if we remove god from our everyday life, what is right and what is wrong? Will it then be ok to murder someone? Will it then be ok to steal from someone else? No you say? Who says? You? Me? Our governments? Well I THINK it's ok just because I think so! Because see you can't tell me whats right and whats wrong. I mean who are you to tell me I can't kill you? You see, even if you don't believe the bible or anything it says, thats cool. But can anyone argue that the bible has some pretty good guidelines for everyday life? I mean, don't kill, love your neighbor, Honor yor father and your mother, etc. etc. I mean aren't these common sense things? This country was founded on the principle that God knows better than man whats right and whats wrong. And that if this nation would follow Gods laws that we would be for the most part would have success. So here we are. Our nation is locked in this perpetual battle for moral clarity. When to me it's simple. You remove God from your moral foundation, and before long you have no moral foundation. What then IS our moral foundation. We are left to decide for ourselves, and that to me is scary.

[Player0]

Burnt Offering, that is some of the best things I've heard here yet.

I couldn't agree with you more. Basically, as I paraphrase, you feel that religion is a tool for enforcing morality. In fact, there's no other truth to this. Governments (including religious powers) have used religion as a basis of power for thousands and thousands of years. Just look at the Greeks or the Japanese. It's not that much different these days.

Essentially, there ARE no right and wrongs outside of religious guidelines. And I will also agree that modern religion has some pretty good guidelines, in general.

The problem is that since religion is a tool of power, since it can control the masses, it has been misused by the leaders of the people. For things like the Cruisades, Slavery, Torture, War, etc. More recently, abortion, anti-gay, even anti-woman.

All mass religions have these flaws. As soon as you control someones life partially, you begin to control it more completely. As soon as you create rules to keep humans in order, you start taking away individual liberties.

Killing and rape and theft and hate crimes, this is all stuff that is wrong because it causes harm to others. If you form a religion that has all this good stuff in it, and none of the fag-hating, women-beating, war-mongering, then I would gladly join.

Very few people are confused about the larger issues. It's these smaller grey areas which cause the problems. In the US, LAW creates morality. Murder and theft and rape is illegal, and these are real concequences, not religious concequences (which dont work as good I'm afraid. The people commiting crimes wouldnt be having this conversation). There's enough morality there to keep the peace. As soon as we start getting too much more in there, we end up with crazy seat-belt laws and anti-sodomy laws and crap which just take away too much personal freedom.

[Burnt Offering]

Well Said PlayerO,
Refering to what you said about religion being used as a tool of power is so true. May I suggest that when this has happened, and make no mistake, every country is guilty of this, that it has been used as a weapon and not as something that is suppose to help people. That is wrong. It sickens me the way that millions of people have used religion as an exuse to commit atrocities. And I don't think that for one second that the people that have done these things had a care in the world for God or anything he has taught us and I refer to the things I mentioned in my last post. Again for me it's simple. Treat others as you would have them treat you. I may not agree with everyone on every issue, but I would still help you if you were stuck in the ditch, and needed help or a pull out. I would still give you 50 bucks for food if you truly needed it. I don't care who you are, where youve been, or what you've done in the past. In myself I'm not strong enough to do these things on my own. Because of our human nature we are more concerned about me, myself and I. It's easier to just look the other way. I think of the guys that might get revolted at my next statement. But this is the truth for me. I need God to help me, because I'm not strong enough on my own to do these things. Even if God doesn't exist, and I believe he does, If all I do is live by the ten commandments as laid out in the bible, I will be a better person. So, now what does this have to do with removing Under God from the Pledge? I think that the moral issues of our day, require a stand one way or the other. Either we stand for whats right and just, or we lose it all to anarchy and total lawlessness. Remove God from every facet of public life and you have entered into dangerous territory. Every society that has done thins has eventually failed, and this country will be no exception. It may take time, but it will happen.

[tripodal]

Originally posted by Denovin
in most states its a requirement to learn a second language to graduate high school.

I heartily agree... just about all of the rest of the world learns a second language.. english. we should not stand by and allow ourselves to be exceded as an educated nation.

[tripodal]

Originally posted by Player0
If you form a religion that has all this good stuff in it, and none of the fag-hating, women-beating, war-mongering, then I would gladly join.

This utterly bothers me about my particular religon. If someone is gay thats thier deal, in the bible Gay = Wrong. But its not anyones job to tell them, Don't be gay.
Thier deal is with god, when it comes down too it. Why would you waste your time runing the life of a likely very nice person.... (is it just me or are all gay people i know nice)
There are pleanty of other things to concentrate on.
I mean man.. seti 2 is about to start.