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Player0
07-10-2002, 12:11 AM
Well, I received the following e-mail from someone who read my $2000 workstation article. I thought I would respond to it here, where everyone can benefit.

From Kiwi128
hi!

just read your "2000$ workstation" article.
if the audigy sounds so perfect to you it
must be for one of the following reasons:

*) you have an extremly good amp/speakers connected to it
*) your old soundcard was even crappier
*) you're hearing things because the marekting works on you ;)

> I never said the sound was perfect. I said it was the best sounding sound card I've used. I've used a bunch of them, from Live! to Yamaha, Guillemot, Phillips, etc. For a non-professional audio card, yes, the SB Audigy sounds the best to me. I use a decent JBL 2.1 speaker kit, and also a pair of HQ Koss headphones. I am not some mindless drone who responds to marketing. I find that rather insulting, and I base my opinions on what sounds good to me.

no offense, but the frequency linearity (don't knoe the
english term) is real crap. now, i'm not a thg fan, but just look
at the graphs (if you don't even know what they mean, nevermind
the whole mail and love your audigy, hehe)

> I used to design speaker enclosurers in college. I've done a lot of reading of books on the subject of sound, and even wrote a Windows application which emulates certain parameters. So yes, I do understand. THG is an iffy source at best, and I dont know whether or not to put stock in that graph. It certainly doesn't match what SB sais about the card. In all honesty, its not graphs that are important. Its how the card sounds. And yes, I've read this article long before I owned an Audigy.

i've used creative cards for the longest time, but i don't plan
to ever buy it again, because besides the crappy quality (i have
a denon avr3802 connected digitally to my pc (coaxial, because
it's better than optical) so it's rather high end), the drivers
are bloated ans not stable too....anyways, it doesn't even output
24bits although it says so on the box in big fat letters, because
it works with 16bits internally

> Parts are 24bit, parts are 16bit. Everyone knows that these days. This is because it is more of a general solution for most people. Jack of all trades, master of none. Obviously, if you are going to do any sort of serious music mixing, then get a professional class audio card. The Audigy is NOT a professional class audio card. I use the one at work to play MP3s, and at home for playing video games. As for the software being bloated, and Creative themselves...I never said I was pleased with either. I've had some real doosies of sound card drivers in the past (Turtle Beach and Guillemot), and the support was terrible. Creative is midrange.

Im certainly not going to defend the Audigy or Creative. I think the card sounds better than other solutions I've used. THG compared this card to a professional solution, and it didn't do as well. Go figgure. The terratec sucks in games, so they both have strong points and weak points. If you don't like the Audigy, don't use it. But don't say that I've been influenced by marketing because I like mine. That is unfair and untrue.

I didnt actually purchase my first audigy, but made a trade for one of my old Live! cards. I didn't get the Audigy until much later after the release, mostly because I didn't trust the 686B bugs the old SB cards used to raise. The Audigy doesn't suffer from those problems, and really performs well in the two systems I use them in (work and home now).

p.s.: i'm intending to buy a swiftech mc462w-u, did you test the
u-version?
i'm wondering because acording to your tests (ok, dT figures), the maze3
would be cooling double as well (don't know how to say that in english)
can you tell me anything? thanks


I didn't test the MCW462-U, no. My system uses 1/2" ID tubing, so I'd have to use the MCW462-UH model anyway. I tested the original MCW462 and a special MCW462 which I modified slightly (similar to the U model now in some ways). Without testing I can't say for sure, but I beleive that the Maze3 would out perform the new MCW's as well. I hope to test this someday.

The Maze3 doesn't cool twice as well as anything. Because of my unique cooling system, it is hard to say just to what amount the Maze3 outperforms other waterblocks. It DOES out perform. But what makes 10c degrees difference on my system may only mean 5c difference on your system.

What I can tell you is that both the MCW462-U and the Maze3 are top notch waterblocks, and you'd probably be happy with either one.

BigBen
07-11-2002, 12:11 PM
Hi Player0,
I recently bought a Audigy card when I gave my live 5.1 to my son for his machine ........ you are correct the Audigy does indeed give better sound :) I am using an external Audiolab amp, decent LARGE speakers, good quality speaker wire and connections. Both games and normal music playing have a better quality to them ........ just my 2 cents worth as they say

Regards

Player0
07-11-2002, 01:55 PM
Kiwi and I discussed it some more via email. Im too lazy to copy it down here. If he wants he can post anyway. There are certain areas where the Terratec does have better sound. A pure 96k digital out line can certainly match up quite nicely if you're hooking it to a good receiver.

Fact of the matter is, I haven't seen one here in the states. And pro audio cards in the states with similar features go for 2-3x the cost of the Audigy.

I still think the Audigy has the best over all, all-in-one package. And most people who have upgraded from Live! to Audigy can hear the improvement. I guess thats what really matters :)

Farabomb
07-11-2002, 04:15 PM
You really can hear a difference between a SBLive 5.1 and an audigy? I've been thinking of getting a new soundcard but reading all sorts of bad things that happen with creative products I was going to get a phillips or TB.

lechumbl
07-11-2002, 04:22 PM
Hi Fara,

If you want a good inexpensive sound card, look at the Yamaha brand.
For the money, they sound pretty good.

Take care........

Farabomb
07-11-2002, 05:19 PM
Honestly Lee I've never seen anything but Creative, Phillips, TB, and Hrecules in the stores. Then again I'm mostly looking at the pretty boxes :D Is it in a Yamaha box? I'm still leaning towards the audigy just so I can have firewire and I might spring for the platinum so I can get the breakout box.

MrP
07-11-2002, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Farabomb
You really can hear a difference between a SBLive 5.1 and an audigy?

i havent tried it myself, but normally if you get the same song, and play it on both systems a few times you will start to hear differences.

It might sound slightly clearer
it might get you (or your foot) involved more
If you stood in the correct position you might be able to hear where the instruments are better (imaging)
as well as any number of other things, better defined bass or treble, less siblance (the horrible hissing noises you sometimes here when a cymble is hit)

hope that meanssomething too you

toodles :xsofa:

Player0
07-11-2002, 05:36 PM
I instantly heard a difference. It sounds cleaner or richer...brighter somehow. Yamaha is usually an OEM brand, from what I can tell, but you might beable to find them around.

The Audigy doesnt suffer from any of the bugs the old Live! did.

Farabomb
07-11-2002, 05:48 PM
I might have to pick up a Audigy plat. and test it side by side with my 5.1 just to see.:p

Is the Extigy the same/worse? I was also loking at that one too.

MrP I understand what you're talking about (mostly:D ) I'm a musician and hang in the studio a lot so I pick up words here and there. I love my misic and I want to hear ALL of it ALL around me.:) nice and crisp and clear.

mdzcpa
07-11-2002, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by Player0

The Audigy doesnt suffer from any of the bugs the old Live! did.

Well...that's not be entirely true. The audigy still pushes the PCI spec to the very edge (some claim over the edge)...certainly enough to be considered a real PCI bus hog. There are still a good number of complaints about popping and crackling using the Audigy on systems with a heavy load on the PCI bus. Usually setting the PCI Delay Transaction to "Enabled" in the bios helps a lot, but it doesn't cure the trouble for everyone.

To be honest, my buddy has an audigy....and it sounds awesome! But I'm just not convinced Creative will work without a hitch in all configurations as it should. In contrast, you rarely read about the Phillips or Turtle Beach with those kind of issues. I've installed countless TBSC cards in a huge number of systems over the last year, and have yet to have even one driver or PCI Bus issue with any of them. On the other hand, practically 1 out of 3 Creative installations results in the need to get into the BIOS and start playing with the Delay Transaction, Master Delay Transaction, or PCI Bus Master settings. I can usually get it all worked out, but it's a pain in the ass.

This has been going on since the SB128 days, and has continued right on through the Audigy. If you're only building a few systems here and there for yourself, your chances are good that all will be fine. But, if you're like me and build a good number of systems for clients who want good sound (gaming non-business rigs), you will develop a loathing for Creative sound cards quickly. This is one of the reasons even the big OEMs like Dell have begun moving away from Creative and into Phillips and TBSC cards over the last two years.

I think it will be a long while before I trust any Creative cards. They need to learn how to make great sound without hogging the PCI bus.

Player0
07-11-2002, 09:25 PM
I had the popping but it was corrected by changing some bios settings...basically, making the PCI more 2.1 compliant.

mdzcpa
07-11-2002, 09:57 PM
Well, I'll admit that if you get it running smoothly, the Audigy is the best sounding (non professional) sound card on the market bar none:)

Player0
07-11-2002, 10:22 PM
I have other cards that pop and crackle. If anything, its still Via's fault. Well that and a PCI bus speed from the stone age.

lechumbl
07-11-2002, 10:34 PM
Hi all,

Comment on the Yamaha cards:
They are cheap and easy to get and configure.
I have bought several at local stores where I used to work.
Like I said, if you want sound they are fine.
If you want synphony sound, go something else.

Take care.......

mdzcpa
07-11-2002, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by Player0
I have other cards that pop and crackle. If anything, its still Via's fault. Well that and a PCI bus speed from the stone age.

I've installed no less than 30 Turtle Beach Santa Cruz sound cards over the last 18 months on various systems...most with VIA chipsets (KT7, KT7A, KG7 southbridge , KR7A, and KX7) and have never had so much as a single crackle. I really think it's the combination of VIA's older than dirt PCI Bus architecture along with Creatives PCI Bus hogging characteristics which cause trouble. There are just more forgiving sound cards then Creative out on the market...that's my only point:)

Player0
07-12-2002, 12:20 AM
My Maxi Muse used to crackle constantly on the KG7 and KT7a at work. Ive also had some Turtle Beach cards that did this on various boards, PIII boards, etc. Oh...my girlfriends box also crackles on occasion, its a 694 based chipset with a Phillips rythmic edge, but only with mp3s and waves...not in games or anything.

Actually they were all via boards. The Live! cards were always the most prone because they are set to use higher PCI bandwidth than normal, but the problem can affect other systems. Especially ones with Raid.