Help I think I've gone toooooooo far!

[dino-new]

Help, the need for speed has taken over any and all reason!

http://www.members.cox.net/dino-new/over.jpg

http://www.members.cox.net/dino-new/under.jpg

http://www.members.cox.net/dino-new/CPUID.jpg

[ralf_c]

insane:eek: nice overclock though.

[soccrstar]

holy mary mother of perl

wicked man wicked

[edit] wrong smiley :-p
:clap3:

[DCMan]

Can I have one, please? very nice! :D

[WesM63]

Hey dino,
Looking Mighty fine my friend. Whats the inside look like? ;)

[notoriousformula]

dude! that is insane.. it should be launched from NASA(your website) ;)

and ye post some inside pics :)

[Player0]

Looking good, how does it stay upright?? :)

[yaboc]

looks sweet dude.

[dino-new]

Thanks Guys!

Player0,

Actually it's starting to cave in my desk :( Damn plastic tables...

:2guns: (the maker of plastic tables sits here)

When I kick the top fans on it actually gets the water temps down to 2 degrees above ambient. But they're loud as crap. I'm getting ready to hook them up to a switch for noise control.

I also have to take apart the pelts and switch my system to ceramique instead of AS5. Dredding it though, big pain.

I still think I need more power to the CPU pelt! I was reading this web site about a guy that builds pelts custom. All the way up into pelts that can dissipate thousands of watts. Do you think I could get one that runs 300-350watts or so @ 50x50mm? Hmmmm!

Here's the inside...

http://www.members.cox.net/dino-new/inside2.jpg

and at night...

http://www.members.cox.net/dino-new/inside1.jpg

I decided to get one of those Matrix Orbitals, damn those are cool. They can actually monitor the temps below 0c. Here's a picture of it before I switched the cpu - gpu to parallel instead of series. Now the gpu stays about 1c and the cpu around -6c both idle...


http://www.members.cox.net/dino-new/front.jpg

[Synthohol]

is that run in parallel? it looks as such from pic, i havent heard of much success with p/loops until i saw the 4g cpuid.
congrats!:)

[mdzcpa]

Holy Crap! Yes, indeedy, the bug has hit you hard!

Keep up the good work. A few benchies would be great:)

edit- btw, moved to the *new* extreme cooling forum. this just seems like a great thread to get that forum rolling:D

[mischifdad]

dino-new

Thats one nice set-up there.....Made me DROOOL:D when i saw it!
I've got a question tho.I bought my Dangerden maze 4 cpu-gpu blocks with the coldplates just in case i wanted to one day set it up with pelts..and I noticed you have it running at 3.95 ghz from you sig.
Q:How stable is it at 250fsb(4ghz)? Also,does it give off quite a bit of heat?


Thanks:D

[jimmyang]

nice overclock,
nice setup,
nice cooling!

:drinky:

[dino-new]

mischifdad,

Yea it runs at 4.1ghz actually, I'm still tweaking it for stability and such. Just got my new Asus board from the old abit that I acccidentally glued the cpu tray with conformal coating. Woops!

When I get all the bugs down I'll post something about the max stability I can get out of it. I may have to go with a bigger ps like player0 suggests.

Synthohol,

I actually get just as good performance if not better running parallel. But I'm also running the 1262 Eihem pump (900 gph). It pushes the flow rate real good.

[Player0]

You're parallel system benefits from the fact from where your tubes are coming from. If your pump was on the bottom, the GPU would be closer to the pump, and would get most of the flow. However, because of where you put things, the CPU is closer, so it should be getting more flow than the GPU.

[illmatik]

Where did you get those rad mounts? Did you make em yourself?

[dino-new]

illmatik,

I actually made them in CAD and then had a program built to punch them out of 16ga Aluminum. Then the shop I work at formed them up.

Player0,

I'm getting some temp fluctuations. Some times when I boot my CPU temp will be -6c and other times it will be 7c, both idle temps. Is that the instability in the thermal paste that you were talking about? Nothing has changed, just turned it on and off again. I'm still running the AS5 on everything.

I'll switch over soon to Ceramique, but I'm curious if that's what it is.

Thanks,

Devin

[Player0]

Thats not the thermal paste. You should simply get better temps with thermal paste, but not fluctations.

My first guess would be something using more of the CPU than just idle. Going by idle temps, I feel, is a worthless benchmark, because you dont know how idle idle really is.

Full load measurements should be pretty much solid. Use those as a measurement. If full load temperatures fluctuate too much, my first guess would be air bubbles or pump problems.

[dino-new]

Player0,

Perhaps it's the pump, I'm running it off a relay that I haven't debounced yet! I probably need to add debouncing to the circuit. Maybe I could get a flow meter to watch the system closer. Do you know of any good resources for flow meters?

I remember you saying that perhaps a light fog of thermal paste on the pelt hot and cold plates? What do you think about running the as5 on the hot side and ceramique on the cold side? Also do you know if ceramique transfers the heat better at cooler temps?

Thanks,

Devin

[edit] I just fixed the water loop so there's no more air bubbles in it at all! My temps are still a little high.

[dicki]

holy monkey, nice work mate, the looks very sweet :)

[dino-new]

Thanks dicki,

What do you think about the thermal paste? Run as5 on the hot side and
ceramique on the cold? I re-did some of my tubes and got all the air out
now. It's still is up 10c from where it was idle and nothing is running in
the Back Ground. Strange? I'm wondering if the as5 got burnt on or
something and it's creating a thermal barrier of some degree?

I ordered a new base plate from swiftefch as I stripped one of the bolt
holes. I think it came that way as I barely applied any pressure, yet they
assure me it's torqued to specs from the factory. hmmm! Anyways, that means
I'll need to open the system up for some maintenance then. I'll switch over
to ceramique then.

For now I'll debounce my switches and relays.

Thanks,

Devin

[Player0]

I havent done a direct Ceramique comparison at sub temperatures. Arctic Silver 2 used to be the best performer (over AS3). Ceramique should work better on cold however, and I dont like AS5 for any application. Its too inconsistant.

Id say ceramique all the way.

[illmatik]

Yeah, I noticed the same thing. Big shifts in temps between almost perfect applications. So ceramique works great for pelts?

How about the stuff they use on the vapochill? I have a package of that lying around.

[mdzcpa]

That's actually just generic grease with silver coloring. Surprisingly, it works well though.

[dino-new]

Thanks you guys! I think I'm going to try to restrict the flow to my gpu a bit. Since I'm running in parallel to the cpu and gpu it should send more flow to the cpu. I'm thinking that perhaps the flow is fluctuating or something.

Also I'll switch over to ceramique. I talked to swiftech (I noticed that they used AS5 on the pelt setup that they sent me) they informed me that pretty soon they will be switching all their pelts to ceramique instead of AS5. Also I've got some of the torque specs from them if anybody needs them.

Thanks,

Devin

[soccrstar]

if you wan restrict flow to gpu than run a y splitter and on the gpu end put a 1/2" to 3/8" ID converter to it. and leave the cpu @ 1/2" ID.

u'll have alot more flow going to cpu

[dicki]

err yeah... thats the problem.

that way your starving one side of the loop, you really need to run everything serially theres no need to run parts in parrallel apart from the theoretical marginal gains in radiators...

dicki

[wfarid]

wow, kick *** job dude, but dino where did u find that eheim (900gph)? that pump is f*ckin sick *** hell. Btw what radiators do u use? Oh yea, maybe getting a passive heatsink for ur south bridge will improve stability... they get pretty hot actually (around and over 100 degrees farenheit)... Again nice job

:D

-Waq

[dino-new]

wfarid,

Thanks for the koodos. Yeah the pump I got from marine depot (http://www.marinedepot.com/a_pu_eheim_universal.asp?CartId=)

The radiators are Thermochill HE-120.3's Damn good radiators.

Yeah I switched to a 3.0C P4 CPU and I've been noticing some stability probs around 250 fsb. I was hoping to hit 266, which is what my ram is rated at. I've got an IC7-Max3 fan type chipset cooler. Maybe I'll slap that on.

Devin

[soccrstar]

Originally posted by dino-new
wfarid,

Thanks for the koodos. Yeah the pump I got from marine depot (http://www.marinedepot.com/a_pu_eheim_universal.asp?CartId=)

The radiators are Thermochill HE-120.3's Damn good radiators.

Yeah I switched to a 3.0C P4 CPU and I've been noticing some stability probs around 250 fsb. I was hoping to hit 266, which is what my ram is rated at. I've got an IC7-Max3 fan type chipset cooler. Maybe I'll slap that on.

Devin

900GPH?

why do you need that for?

must be expensive as hell

and LOUD

[soccrstar]

i got 1ghetto resevoir n my main resevoir, 10ft of 1/2" tubin' n goin' thru 2 blocks soon to b 3 (if i can ever find that sucker)

and the water is poundin' the resevoir
i'm afraid is gon borough a hole thru my plexy glass resevoir if it continues :-x

[dino-new]

soccrstar,

Yeah the 900 g/h flow is for the fact that I'm running parallel to my gpu/cpu water blocks. When you split the lines the flow actually slows down between the two. With a higher flow rate the split doesn't slow it down too much.

What you want to do with the resevoir is split the lines in, atleast, two seperate lines flowing in to the res. That will reduce the flow rate and also any air bubbles cause by the turbulance. Also if you're running a high enough gph pump you can split the flow between two radiators and/or two water blocks. That will effectively reduce the flow resistance and allow your pump to run at a higher flow rate as well. Running in series actually reduces your flow rate rather than parallel which allows better overall flow when measured at the pump, and yes parallel does reduce the flow per line, so if you're going to do it then you need a faster flow pump.

As player0 has stated, you need a good head on the pump to allow for a series system, so that your pump can push through the more restrictive design. Yet, in a parallel, much more important is the higher flow rate.

Devin

[Player0]

"Yeah the 900 g/h flow is for the fact that I'm running parallel to my gpu/cpu water blocks. When you split the lines the flow actually slows down between the two. With a higher flow rate the split doesn't slow it down too much."

That's true to an extent, but it doesn't necessarily factor in all other variables. Say each side of your Y-split is perfectly balanced so both receive 50% flow. Using a 600GPH pump, you might expect 300GPH at each leg of the split. But say you really want more flow than that to each leg to make up for the split, so you go with a 900GPH pump, and now each leg gets 450, which is better.

The factor you haven't taken in account is tubing inner diameter, and how it affects the pump. It is a fact that pumps designed for higher flow will really struggle when that flow is restricted. Higher head ratings overcome this, HOWEVER, the head rating on these higher GPH pumps is not proportional to the flow rating. This is a common problem, well documented online by many of the top watercooling people around. High flow pumps perform poorly when restricted. Using 1/2" tubing is really going to restrict your Eheim, and Eheims are notorious for acting poorly when there is a lot of backpressure in the line.

Back to my example, you plug this 900GPH pump in to tubing which is going to really limit the head, which is going to have a real bad effect on flow. And while the 900GPH pump is going to work better than the 600GPH model, the efficiency loss is great and you in no way or form are TRUELY making up for that flow loss from the split.

As we all know as fact, a well prooven fact, all waterblocks benefit from higher flow rates. Even if your CPU is getting 90% of the flow, the waterblock still isn't going to perform as well as it would with 100% of the flow.

The ONLY recouperative factor in this is that split tubing ACTS like larger diameter tubing, so this will help flow effeciency, reduce head, etc, just like larger diameter tubing does. I truely do not beleive that this makes parallel systems *work* better. It's simply a small advantage that it brings, your still reducing the flow rate to the waterblock by some mostly random amount. I haven't seen proof that you have tried a series flow system so I really just cant accept that it works that much better for you with out that. That isnt to say that there cant be some fluke which causes it to work better.

All I know is that if it DOES work better, it's not for the reasons you beleive because these are WELL documented facts in the watercooling community, proven true by myself and many others with much better benchtesting systems.

I seriously advice anyone reading this to take it with a grain of salt. Parallel systems do NOT work better for most people. I fully recommend avoiding this type of routing, and I do not beleive it can be made to work by the methods listed here. This certainly isnt a slam or a put down, it's just my 'professional' opinion. I just don't see the experience showing through on this set up, I see too many inconsistancies here between this system and what the other watercooling pros have proven, such as BillA and JC and pretty much any of the decent Overclocking.com articles.

[wfarid]

im thinkin about doing my own wc setup ( i want to cool my cpu, nb and gpu btw) and i want to spend around 400-500usd, someone suggested to me these products:

Ok, you will need a Cascade SS (see if you can bribe one off of someone who has one, cause they are pretty rare)

Iwaki MD-15 (?) pump

Tygon tubes

a SUMHC (Super Ultra Massive Heatercore )

The Silverprop GPU and NB blocks...

What do you guys think?

[dino-new]

Sounds like a great setup!

[wfarid]

what super ultra massive heatcore do you guys suggest?

[Farabomb]

Originally posted by wfarid
what super ultra massive heatcore do you guys suggest?

The 120.3 Thermochill would be tops on my list but avilabity might be an issue.

[illmatik]

So w/ all this pump restriction stuff, does it mean if I want parallel rads, I should go get the pool filter from my parents house and a pair of civic radiators to get decent cooling??

just kidding guys, it's been one of those days.. I dont get nearly enough sleep!!

[dino-new]

As long as your rads are matched then splitting to each would be a wise descision as it would greatly decrease your flow restriction.

The thermochill 120.3 is awesome to say the least. I can't remember which place I got my last one, but I had to order it from the UK. They're having trouble getting them here in the US. If you want I can dig through my papers here and find the receipt.

Devin

[wfarid]

yea actually they are selling it at dangerden.com for 118usd. Its a lot but its definitely worth it. I'm thinking about integrating it into my pc. HOW you may ask- well if i cut a big hole into my side panel and cut thru another sheet of metal (part of the plate where the motherboard goes) i can fit the radiator. AND if i do a nice job ill be able to see it thru my viewing window and it will look hella nice. And it will look just pimpin on the other side of my comp. I've cut holes and stuff into my pc before so its not like im a noob at this.... (i cut my own blow hole, took my 2 fan brackets out,from thae back, and then cut the integrated metal grill out, so i could install my own custom grills) What do you think about the integration idea?

[wfarid]

dino with all that water running over ur block and all that pressure, what about corrosion? Water will corrode anything overtime right?

:eek:

-Waq

[dino-new]

You could try something like this...

http://www.members.cox.net/dino-new/over.jpg

[dino-new]

That's why you use a sealed system with distilled water and a good corrosion preventive liquid like antifreeze. I use the racing zerex fluid myself. They say about a 95%-5% mix (water:antifreeze) for the racing stuff and 75%-25% stock for normal (maybe someone's got a better mix for the normal stuff). I mix my racing fluid at 90%-10% though.

And really I find that the water runs at about the same speed as a normal pump with the split lines. But the temps are better in parallel than in series on my system so I keep it that way! I think if I was going to get another pump it would be the eheim 1264 1100 gph pump though.

[naxos]

That thing looks AWESOME! Great work Dino

[dino-new]

Thanks Naxos!

[wfarid]

i've decided to spend 500 wisely, and guess waht im gonna spend it on... my f*ckin comp... lol i scrapped the straight up water idea and decided to go the extra mile and head for pelts. Ok so what parts will i need and blah blah, im pretty learned with watercooling but with pelts, i am a noob. :confused:

-waq

[Drake]

$500 would be able to get a vapor phase-change system, wouldn't it? A lot more efficient than pelts.

[illmatik]

Dino,

Would you be willing to share the cad drawing of your killer thermochill mounts?

Might be able to send you an extra set or 2 when I find the machine shop in my area w/ the cheapest parts ;)

[dino-new]

I would love to. Just need an e-mail account to e-mail it to. You can e-mail me it at dino-new@cox.net

Drake,

The only draw back to phase is the lack of GPU cooling. If you're into games it's a biggie. But wouldn't it be cool to have a phase exchanged system?

[wfarid]

but can a vapor phase change system cool everything? I thought that those just cooled the cpu. I want to be able to cool everything ya know, not just my cpu, get more for the $$.

-Waq

[Player0]

You can always phase change the CPU and run a little water cooler for the GPU.

[wfarid]

do u really look like that?

lol

:P

[dino-new]

Yeah, I'm not sure what's better. A phase changer at $700 and a gpu water / pelt setup at $500 for a total of $1200. Or just a kicken dual pelt setup at $1000. And yes, I realize you've got $500 to spend, so you'll need to settle for a budget system and wisely choose your components. The thing to note is this:

With the dual pelt setup you've got some head room. If processors come out that generate more heat, you could always swap out the pelt and/or the water block for a more powerful version. With a phase change, you're stuck. With a pelt setup as well, you could ad a water chiller later and really get some low temps, below 0c load. Check out the link...

chiller (http://www.marinedepot.com/a_ch_arctica.asp?CartId=)

[Synthohol]

not that i need to look like a dumb-*** today but...hypothetically....
if my power supply is good enough, couldn't i run say an 80 watt pelt for the gpu and vapo the cpu? without buying a meanwell? or is that asking too much of the PSU?

[wfarid]

hmmhm, i bet you could do the phase change and the 80 watt pelting, BUT i just want to spend around 500usd for now and im going with the peltiers... lol, aite but should i pelt my cpu, nb, and gpu, or is it better just to pelt my cpu and gpu? Remember whatever i'm pelting im gonna wc as well. AND could an mpc 600 rev 2 get the job done well? And im prolly gonna be using the ThermoChill HE120.3....

[wfarid]

speaking of water chillers, this http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PA&Product_Code=IPWC-50&Category_Code=Minichill is a waste of $$ right?

[Drake]

Makes a good drink chiller, but is a waste of money more than anything.

[dino-new]

wfarid,

Agreed my friend that chiller is a waste of money.

Synthohol,

Yes if your power supply has enough amps along it's 12v line. But you have to make sure it's powerful enough. Like a 550watt or maybe 420w. I check on the 350's and the one I looked at wasn't powerful enough to do it. Yes it could run but it would leave you with 4amps for the rest of the system.

[wfarid]

should i pelt my cpu, nb, and gpu, or is it better just to pelt my cpu and gpu? Remember whatever i'm pelting im gonna wc as well. AND could an mpc 600 rev 2 get the job done well? And im prolly gonna be using the ThermoChill HE120.3....

[Synthohol]

IMHO leave the nb unpelted, just get an orb or eqivilent good HSF.

[wfarid]

allright so if i dont pelt the nb, should i still watercool it? or is better just with a really nice hsf?

[Farabomb]

I'd put a nice HSF on the NB rather than have it in the hot water loop of the TEC.

Edison... Howdy neighbor. I'm sitting in Kenilworth at the race shop right now. :)

[wfarid]

sounds good, i was thinking microcool's northpole. And i have another quick question. I have heatsinks on my mosfets, but the thing is i want to take em off and put the (better) microcool one's one with artic silver exposy. How should i take off the heatsinks that i already have on my mofsets without damaging my board?

[dino-new]

Yeah I put the stock nb cooler from my abit ic-7max3 onto my asus p4c800 delux and it doesn't even get warm at 250fsb.

[wfarid]

Originally posted by wfarid
I have heatsinks on my mosfets, but the thing is i want to take em off and put the (better) microcool one's one with artic silver exposy. How should i take off the heatsinks that i already have on my mofsets without damaging my board?

the question still remains about that. AND what watt peltier should i need to effectively cool my gpu (86 watts good enuf) and to cool my cpu(226watts good enuf, i have a 2.6c)?

[Player0]

The only peltier you can use on your CPU is the 226w.

The best peltier to use on your GPU is the 24v 172w unit.

[wfarid]

if i used the 24v 172w peltier for my graphics card, what gpu waterblock would u suggest and what power supply would i need? (i know meanwell makes em, but i couldnt find one with adequate volatage ratings, and if i chose to go along with the 172w peltier could i still find a psu that would fit in my 5.25bay?)

[Player0]

MCW50, it supports up to the 40mm pelts and has the best peltier gasketing. Ideally, 24v 11a powersupply would be best for the 172 pelt. But, it will run from a 12v source as well, and still be more powerful than the 85.

[wfarid]

and lets say i just went along with the 80 watt peltier how cold would it keep my gpu? and how much more of an overclock could i get with the 172w peltier?

[wfarid]

cool, but umm, what waterblock is good to use ?

[wfarid]

ahh forget the previous question, lol. so if im using the 172 and the 226 peltiers, what power supply should i get (that fits in to a 5.25 bay)?

[jasonruiz]

Originally posted by dino-new
illmatik,
I actually made them in CAD and then had a program built to punch them out of 16ga Aluminum. Then the shop I work at formed them up.


I've gotta ask...I don't see the radiator. Can you point it out?I like how the 3.5 drive cage is turned sideways, does this make it easier?

[dino-new]

jasonruiz,

The radiator is a thermochill HE120.3. It's the best I've seen
myself. It cools like a dream with three 120mm fans. I had to order my last one from the UK as it wasn't available at the time from the US.

The sideways drive bays makes things alot nicer indeed. Accessing my drives is real easy. The only draw back I could see is that it makes things a bit tougher if you're going to mount a reservoir in it.

wfarid,

I would definately go 172w pelt. I can't recall but what's your vid card? I've got my 9800pro at 504mhz barely above stock voltage. It runs a bit faster than an 9800XT at a little over half the cost! I'm using the meanwell 24volt PS for my 172w. It works really well. I would go with that. The meanwell has a voltage asjustment on it. I found that about 21volts is the best. Here's a link to a site where you can purchase one.LINK (http://www.rpelectronics.com/Default.asp?Main=/English/OnlineCat.asp?Menu=/English/Content/Categories/CatM_68.asp%26Detail=/English/Content/Divisions/Div_68_410.asp)