help would be appreciated (motor died, no start)

[spldart]

I was coming home from the grocery store yesterday and 1 block from my house the engine just died as if the ignition was turned off.
I rolled to a stop and checked ignition first thing since it died so abruptly. Good spark. Then I checked fuel. Plenty in the carb. I then pushed this thing the block home and got to work.

Spark is strong and hitting all plugs.
No fouled plugs.
Timing light confirms #1 is very near TDC.
Timing light confirms all the other plugs are firing.
Replaced ignition module, ballast resistor, cap and rotor all in futile attempt to get it started.

Fuel in carb.
Power jet squirts.
Choke free and operating properly.
Tried the usual tricks for flooded motor (which wouldn't explain dying abruptly on the way home )
Replaced carb with known good remanufactured super six type.
Still no start.

Due to one backfire during start attempts I got that sick feeling of timing chain jumping a tooth. (I know, timing should have been fubar, but I'm grasping at straws here)
Timing confirmed by bringing a cylinder to the non-firing TDC and seeing that the piston peaked at the same time the intake and exhaust valves were equally open in transition from exhausting the old and taking in the new air fuel charge.

Battery is good and I'm even cranking with a charger/booster hooked up.
Starter motor was just replaced last weekend.
Motor turns over fast.

Compression confirmed by turning the motor over slow with wrench. Distinct long ssssssssssssssssss sound heard as each piston comes to TDC.

Every once in a while the motor almost seems to catch but never starts.

Motor has 75K miles on it and ran very strong to this point.

[Synthohol]

I see why b-day is sucky :(
remember youe engine is a 4 stroke, if you get a strong crank out of it, have someone cover your tailpipe(s) while cranking. If a strong VACUMME is produced instead of good pressure, the valve timing could be at fault, ie: chain, gear, distributer gear, cam snapping lots of possibilities.
first off what engine are we talking about? second, all the plugs should be removed and a proper compression test given, ch the oil for coolant, pcv hose or any other vacumme leak, and have the radiator cap off while cranking, look for bubbles (head gasket or head cracked) and please dont discount plastic distributer gears, they suck. mark where dist is and rotate it while cranking the engine if all other teasts i suggested pass.

let me know:)

Timing confirmed by bringing a cylinder to the non-firing TDC and seeing that the piston peaked at the same time the intake and exhaust valves were equally open in transition from exhausting the old and taking in the new air fuel charge.

thats just 1 cylinder

[spldart]

Distributor is driven off the very back portion of the camshaft. Thus if one cylinder valve timing is good then all are good. Distributor position is confirmed good cuz timing light puts 1 TDC where it's suppossed to be on the timing marks. Between that at the back of the cam and number one piston/valve timing at the front of the cam I'd have to say the cam is timed and fine.
Don't have compression tester :(
All vacumm lines checked thoroughly but I don't see how that could cause a mid driving instant die. :confused:
No bubbles in the coolant. All fluids look normal.
Distributor rotates normally while cranking.

[Kabooka]

Could be that #1 is at tdc, but 180 out.. I lean towards a timing chain / belt problem

Carb and choke? what make / year is it

Pontiacs were notorius for jumping timing. - a quick test would be to rotate all plug wires 180 degrees on the cap

[spldart]

Ok...I don't know how when the valve and ignition timing look good but every piston is measuring 70 to 80 lbs. Evenly across both banks. Just what you would expect if the timing was junked. I'm at a complete loss.

[Neo]

My car did this once and I could not get it start. Every checked out. Battery etc. IT ended up being a netural switch for the power coming for the battery. I not very car sassy, but some thing to try.

[spldart]

I get a solid fuff fuff fuff fuff outta each exhaust pipe. (duals with no crossover)
I'm tearing the front off to get to the chain set. I'll pick up the 1 1/4" socket I need for the vibration damper bolt tomorrow.

[Farley]

Hey spldart,

What kind of car is it? It would kinda help seeing as how its getting it the crazy stuff.

What we use to find TDC compression cycle is a whisle on the end of a compression tester hose with the shrader vavle out. Get it close and put a 1/2 rachette on it, crank it over by hand and listen for the whisle. You can do the same with a buddy and his finger over the spark plug hole. This will confirm TDC compression. After clocking it the TDC, physically check the possition of the rotor. Should be pointing to #1 within about 7degrees.

Had the motor ever overheated bad before? Way outside change the headgasket between cylenders went, not likely though.

Sounds like you got most covered. Do you have access to a compressor? A cylender leakage test would be my next step.

Depending on the car, your probably gonna need a dampener puller. :(

Have you used Either at all? (not a big fan myself) but that would wash the cylender walls possibly causing the 70-80 PSI reading.

"ballast resistor" This tells me that its a points and condensor ignition. Did you check dwell or points gap?

Sorry if I covered something you already tried, kinda got late in the post. I have a 10 line reading limit :lol:

HTH

Keep us posted. I'll check back. :)

[Synthohol]

tear the front off?? pull the valve covers first to chk timing!! watch the valves. dont work so hard!!

which car dude, you havent said or i missed it! im guessing mopar 318??

[spldart]

Small block powered Duster. My hot rod. 318 v8 '74.

Already confirmed rotor position with 1 at TDC.

Never overheated.

No compressor.

Have a damper puller.

It's an early electronic ignition. There was a ballast resistor incorporated on these.

Thanks for the ideas. ;)

[spldart]

Originally posted by Synthohol
tear the front off?? pull the valve covers first to chk timing!! watch the valves. dont work so hard!!

Already watched the valves while watching piston position. It seems right so I'm totally at a loss :(

[Synthohol]

bad gas?? you try starting fluid?

[spldart]

I had driven 65 miles on this tank. Bought at the same gas station I always go to. Car was running perfect then shut off as if electrical. I figured I would have some sputtering and hesitation if I had gotten some bad gas and it would continually get worse until It died. But that was not the case.

Dunno :confused:

[Farley]

>It's an early electronic ignition. There was a ballast resistor incorporated on these>

Oh yea, I conveniently forgot about that :rolleyes:

Stupid question, but.. Are we sure its gas and not water. Stupid I know but this is a tough one.

You got:
Gas
Spark
Compression (kinda)
Timed

Maybe a large vacuum device went bad, like the power booster or the PCV valve sollowed the check valve. It still should of sputtered though. Graspin at straws too bud. :(

Still thinkin..

[Farley]

Are the plugs getting wet?

[Synthohol]

please try the starter fluid in SMALL bursts just to see if it will sputterdeestart a little, also a cracked cap will sometimes have the same symptom.

[spldart]

Plugs are getting wet....
I'll pick up some starter fluid tomorrow :(

[Farley]

Well if we got wet plugs, we got timing and vacuum. If the plugs are too wet they wont fire. If the ether don't dry them off tomorrow you may have to dry them yourself. Or replace, I didn't see plugs on your replace list. ;) This still doesn't explain why it died though. :confused:

I you replace the plugs, spin the motor without the plugs in it to help clear it out, maybe just a dash of WD-40 in the cylender to help reseal the rings, if the gas washed the walls.

Any chance a wire grounded or disconnected that caused it to die and now its flooded? Were ya coming around a corner when it happend?

[spldart]

replaced plugs
ran starter motor a bit with all plugs out
was coming into a turn onto my block when it quit

[Synthohol]

float in carb stuck?

[Farley]

Hmmm...

Recap:
Still have the new carb on?
You confirmed spark while cranking with a timing lite on all 8?
New cap rotor resistor plugs.
Compression 70~80 PSI -this so far is the only questionable thing

When you check the spark with the timing lite was it near the head or the cap? With or without it plugged into the plug screwed into the head? I just wonder if the spark is making the trip under load.

An old points trick, might work. Pull the plug wires up about 1/2 inch out of the cap. This will increase the spark voltage due to the fact it needs to jump that gap. dunno wortha shot.

Stupid question #324 the coil is bolted down. No chance of it sliding over and grounding out when you made the turn? Nuttin personal, just askin cuz I can't see it ;)

The died while turning is a clue. Check the wires leading to the coil and the rest of the ignition. Pull and tug on the wires leading to the ignition devices to see if the coppers broken inside the casing. I've had quite a few that died while turning, streching the wire just enuf to brake contact and the next day reconnects just enuf to start.

Maybe hot wire the coil. I don't recomed it, its a disprite measure, could fry the coil. Remember only positive to the positive side, negitive gounds through the distirbuter and there is no chassis ground on a coil. ; ) Speaking of, is it stock or like and Accel after market? Usally after maket needs the full 12v. dunno much about the morphidite early electronic ignitions, the 1/2 point 1/2 electronic wasn't around long. Not sure what would need to be done to convert it to full 12v. Ok, this is getting off on a tanget a bit. :)

Well, if every possibility has been exploered after everything has been eliminated what remains must be the cause no matter how inprobable it is. so far its the compression.

If you still have the compression gauge, take a reading on one try soaking the cylender with a little WD40 and retest see if it comes up. This will tell us if its cylenderwash or bad timing causing the low compression.

Wish you were a little closer, I'd love to take a look at this is got me quite baffled. :P

:)

[spldart]

Originally posted by Synthohol
float in carb stuck?

As mentioned...I've replaced the carb and dried out the motor. Nogo :(

[spldart]

Originally posted by Farley
Hmmm...

Recap:
Still have the new carb on?
You confirmed spark while cranking with a timing lite on all 8?
New cap rotor resistor plugs.
Compression 70~80 PSI -this so far is the only questionable thing

When you check the spark with the timing lite was it near the head or the cap? With or without it plugged into the plug screwed into the head? I just wonder if the spark is making the trip under load.

An old points trick, might work. Pull the plug wires up about 1/2 inch out of the cap. This will increase the spark voltage due to the fact it needs to jump that gap. dunno wortha shot.

Stupid question #324 the coil is bolted down. No chance of it sliding over and grounding out when you made the turn? Nuttin personal, just askin cuz I can't see it ;)

The died while turning is a clue. Check the wires leading to the coil and the rest of the ignition. Pull and tug on the wires leading to the ignition devices to see if the coppers broken inside the casing. I've had quite a few that died while turning, streching the wire just enuf to brake contact and the next day reconnects just enuf to start.

Maybe hot wire the coil. I don't recomed it, its a disprite measure, could fry the coil. Remember only positive to the positive side, negitive gounds through the distirbuter and there is no chassis ground on a coil. ; ) Speaking of, is it stock or like and Accel after market? Usally after maket needs the full 12v. dunno much about the morphidite early electronic ignitions, the 1/2 point 1/2 electronic wasn't around long. Not sure what would need to be done to convert it to full 12v. Ok, this is getting off on a tanget a bit. :)

Well, if every possibility has been exploered after everything has been eliminated what remains must be the cause no matter how inprobable it is. so far its the compression.

If you still have the compression gauge, take a reading on one try soaking the cylender with a little WD40 and retest see if it comes up. This will tell us if its cylenderwash or bad timing causing the low compression.

Wish you were a little closer, I'd love to take a look at this is got me quite baffled. :P

:)

Still new carb.
Spark on all 8
Cap rotor cleaned up with dremel and all contacts checked with fluke 83 for opens and shorts. All checks perfect.
New plugs
Compression is going to be checked again after wd40 soak in an hour or two. (gotta buy some wd40 and some ether)
timing light was near head right above plug. Plug in head.
electronic ignition.
Coil was tight as hell. New one is also now tight as hell.
Wires have been checked for continiuity.
Original and replacement coils are OEM parts.

[Kabooka]

How far had you driven before it died? Maybe some "friend" poured water in the tank, and your trip was limited to the gas in the carb and lines... I know its a stretch....

[spldart]

tank has locking gas cap and it was undisturbed.
I had drive 30 miles from work to home grocery store...ran in for a couple of items and then drove home...

Ether no start
wd sprayed into cylinder bore only raised compression 10lbs
distributor pulled and gear examined OK
I pulled the other valve cover and wasn't able to totally confirm timing relationship between valves and tdc...Going to go ahead and go buy 1 1/4" socket to pull damper. Going on assumption timing is jumping around cuz cam sprocket is fubar.

[spldart]

All right...The whole issue making it difficult to troubleshoot is the timing is moving about....Finally broke down and pulled the cover and the cam gear is fubar. I'm real happy I have the problem solved ;) Now to go get the new set.

[spldart]

New timing set is in and car started. But I still have lots of reassembly work to do.
140lbs compression now average :D

[Farley]

:happy:

Good news. Glad you got it figured out.

[spldart]

Ok, question.
I have 140 to 150lbs compression on every cylinder and it starts up easy....But...
It's loud as hell :eek:
I haven't touched the exhaust and I can't find any leaks but the motor is distinctly louder. In fact each pulse from a firing cylinder seems to come straight out the tailpipe like nothing is in the way.
Is it possible this thing has been a tooth or two off for a while now and getting it dead on means my power only now is back to what it's suppossed to be?
I mean it's LOUDER. The wife, kids and neighbors noticed instantly.
I have duals with no crossover pipe with turbo mufflers.

[Synthohol]

take it 'round the block! seems to me everything is ok! perhaps the backfire blew out the tubes in the mufflers? those 10.00 turbo mufflers suck as far as longevity or strength!
congrats, i guess your car got your birthday $$ huh??

[Farabomb]

Louder is good :)

The damn ricers over here would love that sound. Best they can get is a long fart sound.

[spldart]

I'm a little worried about the loudness :( I live in a snobby neighborhood in a snobby town and could easily get a noise ticket for the exhaust. It does sound like music compared to ricers fart cans ;)

Yeah...This cost me 2 bartons for my dually :cry: No birthday cake, candy, beer, gifts, cards or anything for me :cry:

[Synthohol]

didn't you hear? birthday's are best celebrated at the one month anniversary of the 35th birthday! you got a month to plan ahead!! :)
you could put some resonator tailpipes on it to tone it down.

[Farley]

Originally posted by Synthohol
take it 'round the block! seems to me everything is ok! perhaps the backfire blew out the tubes in the mufflers? those 10.00 turbo mufflers suck as far as longevity or strength!
I agree. Easly blowen out. Hows the power on the test drive. Does she bark when you step on it?

Originally posted by spldart
Is it possible this thing has been a tooth or two off for a while now and getting it dead on means my power only now is back to what it's suppossed to be?
Yes, If she's snappy and responsive then your timings right on. Gradual decrease over a long time would be really hard to detect, and now you "snapped" everything back into place, so I'd learn towards what your thinking. As long as everything else checks out. No backfires, Ignition timing reset, blah blah blah...

JFYI, Loud pipes saves lives :lol:

:)

[spldart]

I'll finish putting it back together tomorrow. I ran it for a bit today and found coolant leaking from underneath the waterpump :(

[Synthohol]

FWIW go to a caddy dealer and get a coolant pellet, works like barsleak without clogging up the heater core or radiator, it is a must replacement for all caddy coolant changes because they know their $**t leaks normally!
beats the hell out of dissasembly and monkey-snot!!

P.S. Farley, i dig the avatar!! i never let mine get past 0%!!!

[Farley]

Originally posted by Synthohol
FWIW go to a caddy dealer and get a coolant pellet, works like barsleak without clogging up the heater core or radiator, it is a must replacement for all caddy coolant changes because they know their $**t leaks normally!
beats the hell out of dissasembly and monkey-snot!!

Caddy HT 4100 and 4500 motors. Good for boat anchors :P
IMHO replace the water pump. Its cheap enuf, maybe get a chromer :D Make it go faster. ;)

Originally posted by Synthohol
[B]P.S. Farley, i dig the avatar!! i never let mine get past 0%!!!
:D Thanks, nothin worse then checkin Task Man and seeing 99% SIP. :mad:

:)

[unacceptable_risk]

Glad you got your motor sorted. I have some serious loud car experiance and a couple of thoughts...... You could

a) hook up your electronic ignition to a pot on the dash, or Tandy "like" EI management box, you could simply retard your timing till you clear your suburb.

B) Go with some extra dogs on the pipes as someone mentioned

C) Just love it....go to an xzaust shop get them to measure that it is legal, if so keep your certificate from them in the glovebox and show it to any offending officers of the law, whilst politely explaining the difference in decibels. Most ppl don't get decibels..

I like the stealth mode mod option personally...I have tried all 3...currently running option C...lol

[spldart]

My electronic box doesn't have any control on the timing so that's not an option. I'm thinking about getting a crossover pipe installed to quiet down the exhaust (might be cheaper than two new mufflers.

BTW
http://67.10.210.195:91/camgear.jpg

[spldart]

Images are turned off :(

[Synthohol]

Originally posted by spldart
I'm thinking about getting a crossover pipe installed to quiet down the exhaust
remember, the hottest spot is the hottest spot, have the crossover welded in at the hot spot on the exhaust after the headers/manifolds.