File Sharing: Good or Evil?

[Player0]

There is nothing new to hearing about file sharing in the news lately. I sense a tinge of fear in a lot of people now regarding the RIAA's stepped up antics. Hey, these days its a serious issue, and one that can cost you your job (something I know first hand, in a sort of way). There is one fact that no one can deny right now: sharing copywrited files is illegal in most countries.

When you download a file, you break the law. When you allow others to download that file, you break the law. If you let someone else listen to the file, your probably breaking the law. But does that make it morally wrong to share files? Forget any nihilistic concept of there being no right or wrong. Does sharing files hurt the industry? Is it causing harm? If you can prove that filesharing causes harm, and therefor is some level of 'wrong', then I can see there being laws to prevent these things from happening.

But where is the proof? The RIAA is spewing loss of sales numbers left and right. But how can they prove that this is the result of file sharing? I dont think they can, and thanks to the fine people of congress who Im sure were liberally greased by the RIAA lobbiests, they dont need to prove that they are being harmed financially.

Of course, any sane human being knows that we are in a recession right now, and certainly people are more careful about spending their money. In fact, CDs are damned expensive, and I've never been able to afford that many. If I average a CD every 1-2 months, thats lucky. That number has not changed since the advent of MP3s. Heck, I was downloading MP3s before anyone knew what they were or had broadband. Yet I continued to purchase CDs.

I know people who won't break a law for any reason, even if that law is unjust. I also know people who buy in to the whole moralistic aspect of music stealing, as though by downloading an MP3 you are costing the industry money. I see the RIAA poised to start taking thousands of individuals like you and me (and maybe you and me) to court soon on the basis of the DMCA and recent court rulings. Yet I have yet to see conclusive proof that file swapping is causing financial losses to the RIAA. How can someone go to court on the basis of 'he *might* have caused us damages'. Someone *might* have smashed in to my car. They didnt, but since they *might* have, does that mean I can sue them? I would have to show proof of damages right?

I guess the law doesn't apply to big corporations in this country.

[Farabomb]

I guess the law doesn't apply to big corporations in this country.

The Enron episode kinda proved that. You can do whatever you want as long as you're willing to pay for it. You don't even have to be right, just as you have $$$ behind you you're fine.

The RIAA is well aware this is a good scare tactic. Lots of people that share gigs and gigs are teenagers with no money anyway. What are they going to sue them for? their bikes?

In anything involving the legal system if you have to go to court you've allready lost. You lost a day's pay to be there, you're paying out the nose for a blood sucker (lawyer) thats hopefully better then thier blood sucker, and if your'e real lucky you'll get a judgement that day. That's not real likley and that means you're gonna have to go back and loose more money.

The RIAA will go after the little fish (people with little/no money) just to prove to peole that they can and will f*ck with you if they feel like it. They're allready f*cking you when you pay $15-20 for a CD that has one, maybe 2 good songs on it. Remember, you just bought a spindle of 50 CD's on sale for $15 so you know in the bulk that they buy they're paying far less per CD. Yet CD's are still more than cassettes (if you can find one) and it's clear that cassettes are more money media wise but it's the same music going on it.

Most computer geeks I know have HUGE CD collections. One I know has 500+ and he bought them all. Yea most have a few gigs of MP3's but it's mostly live or rare stuff that you can't find in stores. If the RIAA thinks sales are bad now, wait till they start suing their coustomers.

Maybe the management in the record industry might have to give up the 7 porshes they have for every day if the week. Without the artists they don't make money yet how many times do you hear of a manager stealing a ton of $$$ form a artist. Seems if you really want to get to the bottom of why the industry is doing so poorly they just might have to do some looking into theirselves..... but then again why do that when you can blame someone else and keep sucking people dry like vampires.

Fat Mike over at Fat wreck (www.fatwreck.com) doesn't act like a rock star. He's more likely to buy you a beer than act like a rock star (make sure you buy him one too ;) ) His record label sells CD's for $10 and I don't think anyone on Fat is living in a cardboard box. Seems if you make good music and sell it at a reasonable price lots 'o people buy them. Funny aint it. ;)

[Player0]

Well the real issue here is money. The RIAA has long since controlled the market, and they don't want to give it up without a fight. As soon as internet music springs up, people can pick and choose songs, and not pay the whole price for a CD with mostly crap. Who sais that we have to buy 16 songs to get 2 that we like? The RIAA. A lot of things like that we just accept as the gospel, without taking a step back to realize that hey, this is really a rip off.

I don't see any popular groups out there starving. What I do see is a lot of no-talent pop bands making millions for doing nothing else but looking pretty.

The RIAA isn't worried about loosing money to Joe MP3 out there. They are worried that the market is going to shift and they are going to have less control over how much money they make. RIAA isnt worried about illegal file sharing, their worried about the LEGAL file sharing. You know, buying individual songs instead of the whole CD, cause you KNOW they cant charge $20 for a whole song. This whole suing over illegal downloads is really just a masked ploy to scare people away from internet music, legit or not.

I mean, it has to make sense. You know that the RIAA isnt dumb, and you know that theyve calculated that going to court will save them more money than letting this slide. Yet they havent released data supporting that their sales really HAVE declined. So they are worried about the future. I think its apparant that music swapping isnt really hurting sales. It's been going on since the tape days. No, I think they are scared of the internet form of distrobution itself, because they know it will drop prices way down.

[foment]

I think file sharing is awesome and is actually beneficial for big business.

I download a song i heard on the radio. I download a few more songs from the same artist(s) because I like their work. I end up buying their paraphenalia like CDs, t shirts, concert tix, little doohickeys here and there.

I peruse a downloaded movie. if i generally like it, i end up buying the dvd because i just have an addictive personality and need to rewatch things a bajillion times.

i download a game. i try it out. if i like it, i buy it so i can get the manual and working serials to play online.

i download a few eps of an anime from BT, if i like it....i download more eps....but eventually buy the dvd set when it comes out.

hmm now how is big business loosing money when file sharing is prolly the best and cheapest advertising ever invented?

i am actually going to apply to law school in a few years hoping to concentrate in intellectual property esp properties that are affected by internet activities....so i am really interested as to what other people here think about file sharing.

is it illegal? i guess so. is it morally wrong? i think not. as communist as it might sound, i think it is morally better to share files with those who cannot afford them or just so you dont have an advantage over someone else.

lets say my neighbor has a copy of encyclopedia britannica on cd. lets say it costs ten bux. lets say i am a poor starving student who has neither cd nor ten bux to buy cd. so lets say my neighbor burns me a copy. is he morally wrong? hells no! he is being a humanitarian by doing so. am i wrong? i guess i would be wrong by being born poor.

wow i cant wait to hear responses

[Synthohol]

what im about to say is somewhat related.
i heard in the news that "dress down friday" is killing the clothing industry. kill the clothes industry and you put a serious dent in american economic growth and stability. so what. find a new avenue to make money. i dont really feel that way, its just an example of narrowmindedness on the merchant end.
lets say i buy a cd, i make a copy for in my car. did i just steal? im being led to believe i did. but its my music, i paid for it, or is it mine? did i pay for a lease to play the music on the original media?
should commercial music only be heard through headphones? but the 3 people around me heard the song at the same time and they didnt pay for my cd! should i charge them? i think as far as music, sharing the music is the same as a group of people listening to the same song. the only difference is the purchaser gets to hit the play button.
i have mixed feelings on music sharing, the radio is free but the dj has to talk over a part of the song so if you tape it at home you dont get a perfect copy. the commercials the radio plays pays for the music to be played. should shared mp3's have commercials?
i can go on and on, so ill stop now.
btw i voted a victemless crime because nobody gets physically harmed.

[Farabomb]

i voted a victemless crime because nobody gets physically harmed.

Tell that to Bobby Brown and Withney after they get beat down by their drug dealer looking for the money they owe him. :D :D :pimp:

[Synthohol]

at least they have a better HMO than me :)

[mdzcpa]

It's all about cutting out the middleman....and the middleman doesn't want to be cut out just yet. The wealthy recording industry doesn't want to give up the gravy train and it's going to go out kicking and screaming.

In the end, they will lose. Whatever technology the recordnig industry comes up with will eventually be thwarted by those creative enough to work around it. The bottom line is that the basic economic model is broken. It just doesn't work with intellectual property and the huge premiums customers are asked to pay.

In the end, artists will go back to what they used to do 75 years ago. They will practically give away their music in order to promote themselves, and then they will perform to earn a living. Wow...new concept there huh? They will also do endorsements. Don't cry for the artists...they'll do just fine.

Yes, the recording industry will be something very different in the not so distant future. CD's will be very cheap. Margins will be low. Artist's might only make a milliion or two per year, but hey, that's not too bad.

All of this was predicted in 1987 by a prominate group of artists and recording industry experts in a classic Rolling Stones article series. Well, we're already half way there....

[tripodal]

I havent read any of the comments posted before this, but a common thought I have it. Because there is a law aganst it, does that make it automatically immoral? I don think so. I dont think its wrong necessairly to light off fireworks where they are banned, etc...

[darksaint]

god it's so sad that eveyone at sony wont make 7 million this year.

I think part of the sales is the lack of good music. Have you listen to poppy usa radio latley? Music is getting pretty shitty. Nync, Brittney, backstreet, 50 cents, lets not forget nelly. As a music producer i can see both sides of the coin. Getting payed is nice but only if you have done the work on the music yourself.

Most people, have people write beats for sony or what ever mega recording music mogal you are, and then sony does some market research on what is hot. Like big boobs, skin, young, high glam, punk, hiphop, rock. They you get marketing guys calling in the casting agents. Then they find people who have that look and can sing a little. After the fashtion adivisers and make up artists get done then they go record over some beats and sing the lyrics that were written for them. After 1000 takes they chop up the best parts of the 1000 recordings and put them together.

At some point after they send the video and cd's to radio stations and tv stations they own. They tell them they better endors it.

At some point droves of mindless brainwashed drones buy the "new hot underground ultra cool thing.

I really belive that after file sharing goes were ever it goes, it might make some people make something worth hearing.

The movie indestry does the same thing. 60% of movies that come out from holleywood are old ideas. I.e. remakes or sequals.
Thats kinda of sad. Are we running out of creativity? No i see holleywood as being lazy. Why take a risk on some new screan plays when you can just remake a film for the 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80's?

I see less and less creativeness and i see more and more lets just put all the money we can into and that will make up for lack of creativity.

[darksaint]

Also in salt lake were i live, there is a company that is backed by huge labes and artists. They go around sueing for copy right/ royalt infingment. They tryed to sue the coffee shop i work at for playing cd's. Basicly they guy told use because we play music in public for entertainment with out paying the royalts we are hurting the song writters. So the song writters want there money.

Never mind the fact I bought the cd at samgoody for 19 ****ing dollers.

Also he said we can no longer play the radio with out paying the royalites. Aprarently i can listen to the radio in my car. But not for a group of people.

A long story short i told him to go too hell.

Now the music indestry is trying to make money in really messed up ways.

[ralf_c]

THOSE MOFOS! so we get to work in meager jobs so we can live in what ever hell hole we can afford and spend what little we can spare on commercial music while label execs and artist live in the laugh of luxury. DAMMIT, what's all this bs with RIAA, darksaint if you see that guy in your coffee shop again tell him that RALF said go to hell all the way from LA. the music industry is putting out nothing but crap at sky high prices and then the bastards have the balls to try and intimidate us. HELL NAH, i won't let them bs me with that stuff.

don't get me wrong i see things from both angles as i plan on putting together a small record label my self but i just can't swallow that "they are stealing our livelihoods" bull sH***

[FuzzyTheTerrible]

I wish that the government would put its foot down about these companies running after people who simply collect MP3's. I remember originally it was bootlegging the music or videogames and selling it to your friends, family and just people on the street. I can see how "selling" burned CD's is something they think they need to go after, but people who simply collect the music to listen to? That’s just straight up insane, before you know it their going to be sending you to concentration camps if you hum the beat to your self with out paying them royalties.

[evilmatt]

trouble is your government is controlled by big business groups (mine to a lesser extent but worringly an increasing factor). They have more money than anyone and no moral code to stop them using it to get their way.
The way they are telling the law enforcement agencies to spend more time on prosecuting file sharers is outragous. I think they have enough to deal with, lets get it into prospective murder rape real robbery better to deal with them than the victimless crime of putting a copy of few cd's on a file sharing network.
Even if they were loosing money to file sharing (which there is no proof they are) its only money.
The puppet politicians should be ashamed of themselves taking money from these people and listening to these organisations over the rights and wishes of the people they are supposed to represent.
Its about time someone went down to the riaa hq and had the place stripped top to bottom and fleaced for any copied ip then charged a million dollars for any thing that they don't have the rights to.

its what they'd do to any of us.

[DCMan]

Hey :)

I know this is an old thread, but I didnt catch it the first time round!

I play bass in a full time touring band and am in the music industry, so this does affect me directly... I think that as far as downloading music goes, the huge bands are in it for the gigs. Its something they like doing, and if they didnt love it, they wouldnt do it. Their income from royalties, tours, merchandise etc etc is big enough for anyone to live very comfortably on. Sales of cds are just ANOTHER source of income for them. On the other hand, new bands that are starting out - even those WITH a record deal - will not have the same income from the stuff I mentioned above. They will rely heavily (!!) on cd sales to pay the bills, eat, and generally live. The tours and merchandise etc come in after the cds have done well and people want to hear them perform live. If I like a band who is just starting out, I will buy the cd to support them, and help them achieve their goal, which will 99% of the time be to tour. If the band is huge, and has already had alot of success, I do not have a problem downloading the album. If I then like most of the album, I will buy it... I hope that makes sense! hehe...

As far as CD pricing goes, I agree, it is WAY too high. My band just released a new CD. It is just a short EP, and it only has 4 tracks on it, so we had a fairly limited amount made. The total cost was around £2500. The more cds you make, the cost per unit goes down - ie, 1,000,000 cds (which is likely for a large band production) could cost less than £1 per cd.

Anyway - enough of me!

DC :)

Edit: Cant spell :D

[notoriousformula]

:rolling: :lamo:

[evilmatt]

saw this today made me smile

for sale :

Apple iPod
15 GB model, lightly used
167 songs loaded

The RIAA says it's worth about $25 million.
I'll let it go for $5 million, plus shipping.

:D

[ralf_c]

hehe with a mayor grin:D

[Amoeba Assassin]

its cool with me:D

[illmatik]

Originally posted by darksaint
god it's so sad that eveyone at sony wont make 7 million this year.


Most people, have people write beats for sony or what ever mega recording music mogal you are, and then sony does some market research on what is hot. Like big boobs, skin, young, high glam, punk, hiphop, rock. They you get marketing guys calling in the casting agents. Then they find people who have that look and can sing a little. After the fashtion adivisers and make up artists get done then they go record over some beats and sing the lyrics that were written for them. After 1000 takes they chop up the best parts of the 1000 recordings and put them together.


I see less and less creativeness and i see more and more lets just put all the money we can into and that will make up for lack of creativity.


saint,

you know whats even sadder? at least feel, this is happening in our little unknown corner of the music world as well now.. same dillinja bass, same concord dawn sweepy leads, same tired vocal sound over the same tired 'liquid' break. I used to go to dnb for escape from the mainstream... if it was only 1997 again

[ATF_Syris]

Originally posted by darksaint
Also in salt lake were i live, there is a company that is backed by huge labes and artists. They go around sueing for copy right/ royalt infingment. They tryed to sue the coffee shop i work at for playing cd's. Basicly they guy told use because we play music in public for entertainment with out paying the royalts we are hurting the song writters. So the song writters want there money.

Never mind the fact I bought the cd at samgoody for 19 ****ing dollers.

Also he said we can no longer play the radio with out paying the royalites. Aprarently i can listen to the radio in my car. But not for a group of people.

A long story short i told him to go too hell.

Now the music indestry is trying to make money in really messed up ways.

shouldve told him to wait right there and then pulled your car up beside the building and played the music from your car to see his reaction

[Flybye]

So what am I supposed to do when I have a passenger in the car?

"Honey, please cover your ears. You are not worth the royalties I have to pay" :D

[WackyComputer]

*Takes a bite.*

This thread tastes moldy.

*Looks at date on wrapper.*

Eww, it's over a year old!:puke3:

[Flybye]

*Looks at label on bottle of Balsamic Vinegar*

Hmm, it's been aged 20 years

*Opens up bottle, pours a dab on a spoon and inserts into mouth*

Mmmm!! The older the better!!

Ya gotta know what is proper food for aging ;)