Help choosing P4 CPU

[Liquid3D]

Hello all, I'm new to LiquidNinja's and could really use some help in making the right Intel CPU puchase. I'm disabled, so my budget is strict. I've been leaning toward the 2.4B, or possibly 2.53B. My goal is to reach beyond 3GHz with stability. I know that's not the easiest task, as it's difficult to find vendors specifying stepping, and in Intel's case fab location. I have seen many people exceed 3GHz with 1.8A, albeit a difficult chip to acquire. So I'm hoping a 533FSB 2.26, 2.4 or 2.53 can acheive this. Any idea's, leads, suggestions, etc, will be greatly appreciated.

I already have a motherboard chosen, the AOpen AX4PE Tube (http://www.aopen.com/products/mb/AX4PETube.htm). Which isn't the best overclocker, or comparable to offerings from Asus, Abit, or Gigabyte, but it does support Hyperthreading 800FSB, and it's the Tube-amp I'm interested in. I've been a longtime audiophile, and the vaccum tube offers musicality superior even to offerings from Krell (http://www.krellonline.com/html/m_ClassA_p_FPBm_F.html), or Aragon (http://www.klipsch.com/mondial/index2.asp?path=/products/mondial/index.asp?frame=y&id=&line=&1), let alone a Creative Audigy, or Turtle Beach. PC soundcards are severe in their anemic digital harshness. While the vaccum tube's perceived coloration, is the perfect antidote to listener fatigue indigenous to digital sound. Anyway, I wanted to explain why I'm going with such an esoteric mobo. Your experience will be greatly appreciated. I really need to make the right CPU choice, as my budget is under $200 for the processor. Thank's all!

[Drake]

First off, :D:DWELCOME:D:D to Liquid Ninjas, Liquid3D!

From AOpen website:FSB800MHz is the most popular subject of talk in PC field today. Although Intel has not introduced the chipsets designed for FSB800MHz officially...That pretty much sounds like they're telling your it's overclockable, 10 minutes of googling doesn't really support their statement... And Intel has made 800MHz FSB chipsets. Check out Mike's experience here (http://www.liquidninjas.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4053).

Looking for reviews about the audio... can't seem to find many.

[Ruantic]

Welcome liquid3D, Of the bunch you listed I would probably choose the 2.4, no trouble hitting 3.06, might go a bit higher but already had to give it a bit extra volts.

[Liquid3D]

Thank you Drake and Ruantic. I actually emailed mdzcpa I ckecked out his site and all. Very nice person. But of course that's the 2.4C way out of my price range. The only reason I even mentioned the board supporting 800MHz FSB, was due to it being in their literature. They do specify, it would need a BIOS upgrade to accomodate this standard. I have been leaning toward the 2.4B because of my strict budget.
Anyway here's some reviews on the AOpen on-board Tube amp;
http://club.aopen.com.tw/News/News_showAnswer_Award.asp?RecNo=2905&Language=English

http://www.hardware-testdk.com/test_show.asp?id=1472

There's three other Editor Choice awards but their in Chinese I beleive. From my years in High End Audio I've learned the Japanese, and Chinese have an absolute love affair with Tube amplification. As a matter of fact one of the most sought after vaccum tubes on the planet is known as the 300B. This tube was used in General Electric 10Watt theatre sound systems, and these amps were the size of small refridgerators! They drove Klipsh Horns, and today Audiophile tube amp manufacturers actually design amplifiers around this one tube. HERE's (http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?ampstube&1058592890&class&3&4&) one example (used $10,000) and HERE's (http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?ampstube&1058465672&class&3&4&) another (used $1800 for one of the pair shown). Beleive me, there's a reason people spend 10K to 30K for tube amplifiers alone. The sound is unreal!

[Player0]

The whole tube versus transistor debate is quite old. IMHO, inexpensive tubes sound better than inexpensive transistors. However, high-end transistors sound just as good as tubes to me becauses of the advances in technology. Transistors are thousands of times faster than even a few years ago. However, now you are talking about high-end amp equipment, that which you aren't going to find in a PC.

The problem with tube technology is that, well hey...you're amplifying a digital source, the PC. Digital audio is already sampled down. True, a tube amp will not REsample the audio coming from the PC, but come on. Analog amps only work for analog sources, records, radio, musical instruments. A PC or CD is already sampled at 44-96khz at best. If you can hear the sample rate of a transistor amp (in the mhz or ghz range), you are sure as heck going to hear the sample rate of a 44.1khz CD playing through your motherboard ;)

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The Aopen tube amp is nothing more than a marketing gimmic to sell a motherboard that is...okay. Having any amp built in to the motherboard is simply not the way to go. If you want professional sound, then you will need to have a PC with a SPDIF out connection (the best output connection you can get from a PC) and send that to a high quality external amp with spdif in. This is the BEST you can do. The tube amp on the Aopen is not only not the best quality amp, it's probably starved for power, and again...analog amp, digital source...why bother?

I strongly encourage the SoundBlaster Audigy1/2. These cards have an excellent signal ratio, and are the best sounding, affordable cards you can get. Yeah, you can get some pro studio quality cards for $200-$500, but sounsd like your on a budget. Get an Audigy 2, i think they are $79. They have the best sound your gonna get out of a digital sound card for the price, and they also have a spdif out connection if you want to bypass using the PC as an amplifier all together (which, if you are serious about audio at all, you will do anyway). The Audigy also has EAX so it works with 3d games, if you need that.

Of course, here's the rub. You want to overclock a CPU, but you like audio quality. The problem is that an overclocked CPU = a loud PC. Oh yeah, you can spend a lot of money and make the PC quieter. But you're on a budget. We might better help you with your choices if you let us know what that budget is.

Do you really need a 3ghz CPU? And do you really want to be overclocking? If you want to do 3d games on an intel, then yes, you'll want 3ghz. Maybe you are a good candidate for an Athlon system. After all, Athlon = Budget.

If you want an overclocked intel, get a 2.4g P4 and an Asus, Abit, MSI motherboard, preferably one with Canterwood chipset, i875, so you have dual channel and 800mhz support, which should be out soon or now. Buy the most flexible mobo you can now, because if your buying a cheap cpu, it will probably be the first thing you upgrade later, so youll save money in the long run if you dont have to upgrade the mobo as well.

I like the Asus PCX800 (is that the number?) or the Abit ICG-7. I still think you should be looking at AMD. Whats this for and whats the budget?

[Ruantic]

Yeah the tube is unmatched by modern components in two respects, even the most modern solid state components are unable to match the fidelity, and the power output. I work with both modern, and vintage transmitters. It takes a whole lot of digital processing to even come close to rich sound of tubes. Output power is also unrivaled, the highest output from a single solidstate device is limited to a couple hundred watts. That motherboard is really interesting, Thanks for the links.

[Player0]

I wasn't dissing on tubes. They do an awesome job for what they do. They handle insane powerloads and are a true analog amplifier, which means it amplifies without changing the sound too much.

My argument is about how valuable tube amps are for working with digital signals. When a audio signal is turned in to a 44.1khz audio file, it is already downgraded. No tube amp on the planet can make that audio source sound any better than 44.1khz because that extra sound information is lost for ever. My arguement is that tube amps are supremely overkill for digital audio.

Secondly, sure they can handle a lot of power. But they also use up a hell of a lot of power to do this. And they generate heat, and they don't last forever. There is no way that the PC supplies the tube with enough crystal pure power to really take advantage of the 'power of the triode'. Real tube amps have huge powersupplies that run hundreds and hundreds of volts, and a really smooth power filter. The motherboard just cant compete. The Aopen tube amp is not a high-quality amp.

Thirdly, I think it's silly to have an amp built in to the PC. It should be a stand alone device. Component systems are always better than integrated systems, because they focus on what they can do best.

[Drake]

My thoughts exactly when I saw this product, Tom...

If you've a decent amp, an NF7-S and 1700+ will get you near or better than the sound quality of the AOpen board, and pared with an Envy24HT- or Audigy 2-based sound card you'll have a rocking sound subsystem for a fraction of the cost of a P4-based system with the AX4PE.

[Liquid3D]

Well PlayerO I absolutely have to disagree having owned a Krell KSA-250, Aragon 8008ST, Creek, and Classe, and for tubes Melos, VTL, Cary SLA-70 (w/triode mod), Audio Research, and Futterman. I haven't owned a Mark Levenson, but I don't want you to think I never gave solid state a try. Your knowledge of hertz, and cycles is impressive, but this further reinforces my speculation you've never heard a High End tube amp, and a Krell in a lsitening comparison. Where your logic goes astray is in your trivializing the musicality of the vaccum tube to sampling rates. The best thing to happen to DACs and digital sampling is the vaccum tube staged DAC, this isn't even debatable. Sure, Wadia (http://www.wadia.com/products/27ix/27ix_home.htm) and Krell (http://www.krellonline.com/pdf/KRELL_FLB.pdf) and offer phenomenal musicality, crispy highs and tight lower end, but the midrange is often anemic, and their propensity for "listener fatigue" documented. I will agree there have been efforts to keep the entire path digital, from source to transducer. And there's no one more adpet at this then Meridian (http://www.meridian-audio.com/data/DSP7000_data.pdf). They invented High End digital loudspeakers in 1990, and their amps and CD players are some of the best. I happened to have owned the 505. Yet there's one feat all the high end solid state amps attempt to accomplish, tube sound! The most repeated statement among high End reviewers of 5K to 25K Krell, and Mark Levinson level solid state electronics is, "It's almost tube sounding".

I don't want to drag this thorugh the mud, but I must point out your assesment is fundamentally flawed. The on-board amp on the AOpen you describe as underpowered serves the same purpose as any soundcard "op-amp". If you were to study and compare the circuitry more closely, your description is juxtipiosed. It's actually the op-amp on the Creative Labs Audigy which is far less powerful then the AOpen; i.e capacitance. The AOpen's ReL cap's serve the following purpose;
"On the other end of the tube amplifier, there's also a huge ELNA capacitor rated at 220µF that takes care of the tube amp's power supply. It's a highly miniaturized large capacitance aluminium electrolyte capacitor. Why such a big capacitor? Well, if you want a smooth sounding amplifier, you'll need a good capacitor to deliver clean power to the amp. Otherwise, noise generated by a "dirty" power line (especially one that's coming out from digital circuits) will negate the goodness of the vaccuum tube."
looking at my Audigy, there's no comparison. You don't see speaker binding posts on the AOpen do you? No, and you don't see them on the Audigy either, because their op-amp's. Since niether of us have heard the AOpen, it's premature to call it a Gimmick. Maybe the reviewers are being dishonest, or maybe their really impressed, since they approach the review with skepticism, I choose the latter. I'm not trying to insult you, or argue for the sake of it, however; I applaud AOpen for their cutting edge design. Had they not used Rel cap's, Vishay resistors, Cardas wriring, and a Maxium 668 DC power amp, then I might agree with your assesment. Of course I'd prefer a stand alone card for the simple reason it's offers flexibility, in motherboard choices, and of course doen't become obsolete with the board's chipset. Whe I mention budget, I referred to the type of P4 chip. I already have two AMD rigs, I want to switch out my AIUCB2400 for an Intel based system, because I enjoy variety and find it exciting trying different components.

In every review The AX4B Tube eclipses the sound of add in cards;
http://www.hardware-testdk.com/test_show.asp?id=1057
http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Reviews/aopenax4btube/
http://www.techwarelabs.com/reviews/motherboard/ax4ge_tube-g/
http://www.3dgameman.com/vr/aopen/ax4b_533_tube/video_review.htm
http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/articles.hwz?cid=6&aid=522&page=1

I don't mind so much your having an opinion, only your reducing this to a mere marketing gimmick insults the vision behind it, and my consideration of it. I was aprehensive of this board, however I have to thank you PlayerO your unfounded skepticism had cuased me to scrutinize the board further, and in doing so, I found six more reviews on it, all favorable. In fact the newest rendition, actually offers as many overclocking options as any board out there, and the build quality is better then most! Your statement "...high end amp equipment that which your not going to find in a PC.." was accurate, ironically it's more apropos pertaining to the creative Labs Audigy, which I already own. And more importantly, in so far as op-amps are concerned; it's a much more powerful design then most. The Audigy doesn't even come close in it's part quality, in fact I've yet to see a PCI soundcard spec'd with components of this quality.

BTW I ddin't come to Liquidnijas to "have to be right" nor am I interested in starting off conflicting with others. I do appreciate your help, but I honestly need help in choosing a Pentium chip. Perhaps i shouldn't have mentioned the AOpen, I simply wanted to indicate I'd already chosen a board. No hard feelings.

[Player0]

I've heard plenty of high-end tube amps at the audio shop while drooling over stuff I couldn't possibly afford right then. And I've never owned a $15K tube amp of my own, however I had refurbished an old tube amp/reciever from the early 80s which I used during high-school. It was older, but it had great sound, and was probably a $2000-$3000 unit back in the day. I have a pretty good ear for sound, but I just don't hear the 'tube sound' most people claim. I also can't tell the difference in most patch cables and speaker wires.

Anyway, you can't compare tube amps in the high-end range to a $30 design on the Aopen board. Yes, tube amps are probably better. But just because something has a tube on it doesn't make it the greatest thing in the world. You misunderstood my 'underpowered' comment. I wasn't referring to the audio signal, but rather the powersupply for the tube itself. A couple small capacitors on a linear power inverter aren't exactly what I call the best powersupply in the world for a tube. You take apart any decent tube amp, and you'll find its powered with a high-isolation transformer that takes the AC power right from the wall and filters the hell out of it with probably 10x the capacitors. And that's just to power the tube grid itself! Inside the computer, your converting AC to DC and then to AC again, with almost no room for a decent power circuit. Does it work? Sure. It's a tube amp, it's okay, but it's not what I would consider professional grade.

Hey, opinions are okay. Im glad you decided on the board, I'm not trying to dissuade you from your purchase, but I have some opinions on this topic as well since it's come up before. If the tube amp was on an Abit or Asus board, it might have more of my attention. But Aopen is not a tier one motherboard manufacturer. And they are never the best overclockers. With all that motherboard power feeding the tube, how much do you think you'll have spare for overclocking?? I have motherboards without power inverters and they are power starved!

Regarding the OpAmp...no serious audiophile uses preamps! You run from source to the main amp. You will be powering speakers from a main amp. And so run line-level or spdif to your reciever, why on earth would you want to run that through a pre-amp? I just don't get it. My brand new car stereo has a built in amp, it's pretty good. And I'm flicking that little button to turn it off completely, because I will be running line-level back to the main amp in the trunk. Sure, I could use the amp on the radio to drive the amp in the trunk, but...theres too many componants screwing with the audio signal then. I dont know what you are going to hook this PC up to amp/speaker wise...but do you really need to preamp this out?

Regarding caps/power issues on the Audigy, it sucks. It's using a standard opamp IC circuit. I dont even think it has a driving transistor. But no one drives speakers directly from the soundcard's amp! I didn't say to use the Audigy's amp. Use it's spdif out. You have a digital soundcard with incredible signal-noise ratio driving that spdif connector. Plus you get all the added features of the creative's sound processor chip (EAX, Aureal), which are missing from the AOpens ac'97 codec (it may have software emulation though, which anyone who has played Unreal or Wolfenstien will tell you...eax emulation sucks compared to actually having the hardware). I have that same codec on a few of my PCs, including my laptop. It's not that good. Plus you rely completely on the CPU for sound processing, where as the Audigy unloads most of that on to it's sub processor.

All opinions are welcome, but please don't say that mine are unfounded skepticism, when I have actually had this conversation before, and I have done a lot of research in to these Aopen boards. I honestly beleive that it is a marketing gimmic, because how cool is having a tube on the motherboard? Im just not convinced its entirely useful. You sound pretty competent, so why dont you get the board, and review it for our site. In terms of other reviews around the net, I've never just beleived what I've read. People like what they own, and people review what they own. Most reviews are biased because of that. How often do you actually see a very negative hardware review? Even the worst motherboards around get good reviews. But Ive been reading through some of the reviews, and not everyone is as convinced:

However, it's not easy to tell if the quality and SNR (signal-to-noise ratio) was better than a SB Live! since both sounded nearly the same when we auditioned it with a pair of high-end Sennheiser headphones. Even if both had similar performance, it's already quite an achievement since AOpen managed to clean up the AC'97 audio using a proper vaccuum tube pre-amplifier. You should also note that the vaccuum tube is only a pre-amplifier, so it should be connected to a proper amplifier, preferably something more high-end than the average multimedia speaker system.

A few more reviews you listed dont even compare the tube amp, other than to regurgitate what Aopen has on their website. Then this guy:

We’re far from audiophiles here, but I consider myself a decent audio enthusiast. I have a fairly nice setup at home consisting of a Denon amplifier/receiver, B&W speakers, and a Sony ES CD player for pure music listening, and I have a respectable pair of MidiLand S2 speakers for my computer audio and gaming. So what do I say about the AX4B Tube sound? It definitely has advantages over standard AC’97 that you get from any other integrated sound.

Sure, it improves on AC'97. My sister on a $10 Casio keyboard sounds better than AC'97 does. It's not hard to improve upon beleive me, but does it touch the Audigy? Am I missing this comparison link somewhere? I dont seem to see it in your post.

But enough on the tube stuff. Back to the chip and overclocking, my initial overclocking comment regarded the noise of the system. You aren't really using the best overclocking motherboard, and I have to assume noise is an issue as well. So I don't really think overclocking is where you want to be. In that case, I'd buy the fastest CPU you can afford, and if you can overclock it some, go for it. But I wouldnt go in to this project expecting the highest overclock possible, without sacrificing more money for quiet-cooling products.

[Liquid3D]

Originally posted by Player0
You misunderstood my 'underpowered' comment. I wasn't referring to the audio signal, but rather the powersupply for the tube itself. A couple small capacitors on a linear power inverter aren't exactly what I call the best powersupply in the world for a tube. You take apart any decent tube amp, and you'll find its powered with a high-isolation transformer that takes the AC power right from the wall and filters the hell out of it with probably 10x the capacitors. And that's just to power the tube grid itself! Inside the computer, your converting AC to DC and then to AC again, with almost no room for a decent power circuit. Does it work? Sure. It's a tube amp, it's okay, but it's not what I would consider professional grade....Regarding the OpAmp...no serious audiophile uses preamps! You run from source to the main amp. You will be powering speakers from a main amp. And so run line-level or spdif to your reciever, why on earth would you want to run that through a pre-amp? I just don't get it.... I can concur with only one portion of your rebuttal, the final sentence from the quotes above. I'm sorry, your obviously unfamiliar with High End audio or audiophile equipment to infer that "no serious Audiophile uses a preamp..." I'm sorry but this statement insults my intelligence and reveals your complete lack of knowledge in Audio amplification, and stereo systems. The Preamplifier is the heart of every High End system. No audiophile would ever consider driving a stereo amplifier, or monobloc system, albeit tube or mosfet, with the op-amp of a source component. In fact most high end systems use a transport-D/A converter (many with tube stages in them) or turntable with phonostage, and the fixed output of the DAC or Phono stage makes it impossible to feed directly into the amplifier. And there's not a CD player built with a variable output op-amp sonically worthy of direct driving a high end amp. In fact, I've tried to drive a Tube amp with a $1200 Sony high end CD player with variable out, and of course a preamp (almost any preamp) sounded 100x better, it's shunt, optical, and/or pin-diode attenuator had superior signal control with which to drive the amp/s. For this purpose, there is no other choice but a quality preamplifier, containing a phono tube, or transistor stage, and the attenuator which itself is one of the most important components in the system. In fact you'll find attenuators (volume control) costing as much as $500 (ALPS). Because the device is in the signal path, it either enhances, distorts or ideally remains neutral (which is rare). finally your statement pertaining to interconnects and speaker cables validates your never hearing a true High End system. Cables have as much effect on the sound(signal path) as any other component, perhaps even more so due to the physical length the signal (electrons) travel on the wires surface. Had you heard a truly high end system, it's neutrality would have revealed to you, the prima facie sonic differences between quality interconnects/speaker cables (Straight Wire, Cardas, Monster Cable) and evrything else. I don't want to insult you, but I honestly must say the statments you have made prove you have no experience in Audiophile systems, nor their componentry. I'm not calling you a liar, simply that you've never sat down, and had a qualified salesperson, or whomever, setup, explain, and demo true High End Stereo components. Interconnects and speaker cables would no doubt have been a topic, and if you heard no difference between them, then whatever system you listened to wasn't set-up properly, or wasn't audiophile quality.
In so far as the motherboard, this too reveals your oversight. ASgain I read your statement "it's not a tier one", as you did with the Soltek. Soltek is a teir one product in the far East. it's only been recently introduced here. Remember Epox, Abit, and Asus weren't "teir one" boards either, until they built a following. in so far as the this motherboards parts, it's common knowledge among audiopohiles Rel Multicaps, Vishay resistors, and ELNA are some of the best sounding electronics on the market. And the power source for the tube amp, is more then adequate for this application. Could it have been done better, always. In fact I wrote Ryan Peterson, owner of OCZ last year attempting to interest him in building a seperate a Tube staged sound card using Burr Brown DAC's, and requiring a 12V line the for additional power (similiar to ATI's 9700/9800). This was three months prior to AOpen releasing their board, so I'm familiar with what constitutes an adequate PS for a tube stage op-amp. Perhaps the following quotes from HardwareZone may hold more weight then my own in their description of the Tube's power grid;
"...about AOpen’s vacuum tube, to curb the curious audiophiles and hardcore enthusiasts alike. AOpen didn’t just go and stuff a tube onto the motherboard and push it out the door, they wanted something that would stand up to some scrutiny...Yes, the AX4B-533 Tube is not quite a true “Stereophile” C-class recommended group of components. Yet, given its original fusion idea and meticulous journey to fruition, we believe it is Class-A for certain...Probably the most expensive part of the board is the vaccuum tube pre-amplifier which takes up at least 20% of the space on the motherboard. The large capacitors and low tolerance resistors are probably the kind of passive components that you'll find in high-end audio equipments. AOpen prides itself with high quality components from big names like ELNA, MultiCap and Vishay. These are some of the component manufacturers that makes precision and high-grade components for audio enthusiasts....The MultiCap capacitors used on the AX4B-533 Tube motherboard are those that's based on metallized polypropylene films tailored for the maximum signal resolution required in high-end amplifiers. The ESR value of these capacitors are kept very low and are very high performance capacitors with values in the range of five to ten times lower than typical capacitors. The board uses two pairs of MultiCap capacitors, one pair rated at 0.22µF (200V) and another pair at 3µF (400V). The 3µF capacitor costs about US$16.50 each while the smaller 0.22µF capacitor will cost you US$7.00 each. You can tell by now how much this motherboard will cost you - just by the capacitors alone....On the other end of the tube amplifier, there's also a huge ELNA capacitor rated at 220µF that takes care of the tube amp's power supply. It's a highly miniaturized large capacitance aluminium electrolyte capacitor. Why such a big capacitor? Well, if you want a smooth sounding amplifier, you'll need a good capacitor to deliver clean power to the amp. Otherwise, noise generated by a "dirty" power line (especially one that's coming out from digital circuits) will negate the goodness of the vaccuum tube....At the heart of the pre-amplifier is obviously the vaccuum tube itself. The amp uses a rather low cost Sovtek 6922 Dual Triode tube. According to AOpen, the engineers have personally auditioned various tubes for quality and have come up with Sovtek 6922 as the best choice for both performance and cost. Since the amp is based on a dual triode design, you can always replace the part with any 6922/ECC88/6H30 vaccuum tube. If you can afford something more expensive..."
And this from Trechware Labs;
"My first reaction to the TubeSound audio was the fullness of the tone as well as the more realistic nature of the audio....the sound from the tubsound output is...In gaming, the TubeSound added an additional aspect of realism...I noticed that the TubeSound especially shined in songs featuring guitars, with each note sounding incredibly realistic without any of the "tin can" sensation that can be found in certain recordings. In piano music, the TubeSound really brought out the force behind each note, sounding closer and closer to a live real piano. When I switched over to songs featuring female vocals, I was really amazed at the depth of the audio....In my own listening experience, the TubeSound really excels at classical, pop, jazz, and rock music....I also polled a few of my friends on a single blind test, and they all chose the tube amplified output over the traditional output....Simply put, the audio quality on the TubeSound motherboards is sensational (and I'm quite sure it could be even better if they had a higher quality solid-state audio chipset)."
My criticism of AOpen, is their overlooking the use of high quality DAC's such as Burr Brown's which are some of (if not the) best. As I said, my reaction may be terse, but when you do get around to hearing a true audiophile system, hopefully you'll email me and say "OK now I get it!" I'd be glad to continue this discussion through PM's but I'm getting off focus in my wanting to find a P4 that will reach beyond 3.0GHz, perhaps you may be able to help me in this area, as your obviosuly experienced with PC's?

[Player0]

I hate it when discussions come down to credentials, I really do. You can choose to listen to my opinions, or just assume I have no experience and you don't need any one else's ideas. In my opinion, your audiophilic ideals are quite old fashioned. Sure, there are a lot of strong opinions in the audio world, and people stick to their guns, as I see you are doing. The 'im right, so you must be wrong by default' idea is prevelant here.

Again, you sit here rejecting my ideas because 'I have no experience'. Do I need to list my credentials? Have I worked in a high-end audio shop? No. Do I own high-end equipment? No. Have I listened to high-end equipment? Yes. Have I evaluated and compared high-end systems? You bet your bottom dollar I have. It might be important for you to beleive that opposing opinions must be coming from someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. I can assure you, that's not the case.

I started in to audio when I was in highschool more than 10 years ago. This was before I had a decent computer so it became my primary hobby. I read many books and magazines on the subject. I started out designing speaker enclosures around drivers, learning about how sound actually works. Then my electronics hobbies started to move towards audio. After I finished my virtual reality goggles, I started building audio amplifiers to replace my saggy home system. I learned how to build high-class amp circuits, and powerful linear and switching power supply circuits. I sold a couple of my powered subwoofer designs to some local musicians who were blown away by the isobaric system and awesome 250w subamp, which I made $2000 on. I started getting in to car audio after that, with whatever my budget could afford me. Then I went to college, minored in EE, majored in CS/IT. I moved in to computers, and audio became secondary.

My experience with tube amps? Well I started workign with my uncle to repair and upgrade 2-10kw CB and HAM radio amplifiers, with some ceramic triode and pentode tubes which were just insane, and powersupplies which I couldn't even lift. I repaired a couple old tube radios from the 40s and 50s, and found a high-end tube reciever that I refurbishde, but it stopped workign when i couldnt find some proper replacement tubes, and I didnt want to retune the whole circuit. I worked at Radio Shack for 3 years, and I lived not to far from a high-end stereo shop that one of my friends worked at, and we constantly played with the toys. I remember an article came out in speaker cable differences, and we decided to see if we could hear the difference. Most people CANT hear the difference in cables. And most people CANT hear the difference between a high-end tube amp and a high-end transistor amp. Thats a fact. Maybe that wasn't true 10-15 years ago, when most of your knowledge seems to come from, but today the standards are much higher. So, you want to keep saying how inexperienced I am, thats fine. But I *have* designed multiple amplifiers of many different classes, I have designed many different speaker enclosures that some people considered professional, and I even wrote PC software that would design audio boxes and cross over circuits. How many Audiophiles do you know that can actually build an amp? You beleive what you want, just don't sit there telling me that I don't know squat ;)

You are confusing attenuator circuits with preamps. And you are confusing computer audio with high-end equipment. YES, a professional system needs an attenuator, and most professional amps DONT have one built in, other than a signal matching control. If you're hooking the PC up to a professional amp though, you are going to be going through a signal processor of some kind, either an external unit, or one built in to a reciever. This will have the attenuator circuit, and again, DO NOT confuse an attenuator with a preamp. They are very similar devices, but with very different purposes.

I would like very much to know what you plan on hooking this PC up to on the outside. You still haven't mentioned that. Are you really going to be hooking this up to a $10,000 tube amp, or a $500 Onkyo reciever of some sort ;) You're ideas make sense, if youre rich and can afford the best. I've never had that luxury, I'm afraid, so I make do with the best solution I can afford on my budget. And that is SPDIF.

Don't even go there with the motherboards. I *KNOW* my motherboards. Unlike high-end audio equipment, I've USED and WORKED on almost every motherboard made in the past 8 years. This includes dozens of Aopens (one of my clients had an account with them), Soltek, ECS, Abit, Asus, Epox, MSI, etc, many of which I have personally owned at one time or another. I know what boards are popular in the US, which ones in EU, which ones in Asia, as I read reviews on them from all over the world. Many of those people come to this site. Again, if you need to prove you're right simply by proving how 'wrong' I am, go for it, but you'll never learn anything that way. Maybe you're too old to learn now? Can't teach an old dog new tricks eh? You're set in your ways I imagine. I guess I should just drop out of this conversation, seems like my advice is falling on deaf ears :)

[mdzcpa]

C'mon now guys...Why don't you just agree to disagree and be done with it:)

Let's get the thread back on topic re: the best P4 solution for Liquid3D. If I had to limit my CPU budget to $200 and was going Intel, I'd get the P4C 800mhz bus 2.4ghz hands down. Although it is only a 2.4, it is indeed the newest stepping with HT and the 800mhz bus. These will be the new overclocking champs and can be had for $183. These will do 3GHz no sweat, and likely higher.

Basically this is a ditto of Ruantic's suggestion:)

One point, though. If you want to get the most out of this chip, I'd suggest one of the new Springdale 865P motherboards....like the IS7. They are 20% cheaper than the Canterwood 875 baords, but offer nearly the same performance. If your heart is set on the Aopen board, then get the 533mhz P4B 2.53 chip. But, for the most future proof system for the best money, the P4C 2.4 and IS7 would make a helluva combo.

[Ruantic]

can be had for $183.

Please enlighten me, where? I'm going to build an Asus P4P800 for my son and was going to go with a 2.4C, best i've seen them for is about $209, always nice to save a few $$$:P

[mdzcpa]

Originally posted by Ruantic
Please enlighten me, where? I'm going to build an Asus P4P800 for my son and was going to go with a 2.4C, best i've seen them for is about $209, always nice to save a few $$$:P

Consider yourself enlightened! (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?catalog=343&DEPA=1&submit=property&mfrcode=0&propertycode=&propertycodevalue=4186,3922) This is for the OEM unit 3 qtrs of a page down.

Comes with free fedex shipping too.

[Ruantic]

Consider yourself enlightened!


As always I appreciate it!:)

[mdzcpa]

Anytime my friend :)

[Liquid3D]

Player0 I apologize for my letting this get out of hand. Perhaps much of the confusion, is that I'm interpreting your statements purely in reference to Audio Equipment, and your attemtping to assist me in the merging of both High End Audio and PC's which is a contradiction in terms from the start. In so far as attenuators, if the preamp is the heart of the sound system, the attenuator is the heart of the preamp. They are not seperate, because the attenuator is the key element of the pre-amp. Now the only reason I mention that is because it would be "wrong" in the High End world of audio to think otherwise, which is why we've reached an impasse. There's a fundamental difference between Audiophile, and PC electronics, between Ham radio tube circuitry, and PC cicuitry etc, therefore it's quite natural were conflicting, as there's no frame of common reference. Actually there's a rift between Audiophioles and electronic enthusiasts the two often disagree coming from different belief systems. Audiophiles define, derscribe, and judge eletronic circuitry as muscians do their instruments. That is to say, what characteristics does this device bring to the music/sound. It's not that "your right, I'm wrong". It's, your right in so far as your training, and knowledge of circuitry given the parameters and environments in which those devices function. And I'm right by the definition of Audiophiles, and the training I've "endured".
Let us not start off on the wrong foot, and I will apologize as Audiophiles, do tend to be very passionate in their convictions. You actually forwarned this may occur when you initially said these debates have been done before. In fact their still arguing in Sterophile magazine which is the more musical system; the Atma-Sphere tube, the Krell Reference Series, or the Meiridian digital front to back system. They haven't agreed since the advent of OTL tube amps, quility solid state, and quality digital systems were placed in the same listening room. And when you spend $130,000 on a true high end system, those topics become just slightly heated. Apogee used to make a pair of $50,000 home speakers, the Grands, which could only be driven by $30,000 worth of solid state, or $45,000 of tube amps, and that's not including $3,000 worth of triamping cables, and $20,000 more for the Preamp, Transport, and Dac/Turntable. And I haven't been privilidged enough to own this type of system, I have listened to $50,000 systems using Sound Lab A3's and B&W 801's at Sound by Singer, and Sound II. When I found I'd spent $20,000 on used equipment, and my phone bill was $400 monthly because the only people I could find to talk with about these systems were scattered all over the world, I just upped and quit one day. I actaually had a marriage annulled, partially due to my obsession with high End Audio! I ended up alone with a little tube amp and Proacs, and then I realized I was just 25 years old and sitting in front of two speakers every night toeing them in a an 1/8th of an inch to hear Joni Mitchells saliva, and lungs pull breath. It was perfectionism taken to unhealthy levels. Then I packed in boxes, and purchased a mountain bike and rod off into the Western Ma hills. That led to surfing, and I ended up living in Hawaii, Costa Rica, living and skiing Breckinridge CO, Park City Utah, settling on the tip Of Cape Cod just before breaking my back in a Downhill race. Why am I telling you this, because I was so obessed with $400 1/2 meter pairs of interconnects my whole life was passing me by, as I isolated in front of a stereo. And my peers wouldn't even let me say stereo! So I'm obviously having flashbacks, and I apologize for projecting my Audiophilia at you.
I hope we can just let this go, as it's way off topic, and I'm still needing help with fidning a P4 2.26B, 2.4B, or 2.53B. If your interested, I'm planning on using the audio out from the mobo, as I am my Audigy (not the Sony Phillips Digital InterFase) out into a Monsoon Flat panel stereo sub/ satellite system (which has a small control-amp in the subwoofer). I won't touch on the stereo VS multi channel debate. Suffice it to say mutlichannel systems are but a marketing ploy, for those who don't know stereo provides the best sound due to the bilateral symmetry (depth perception) of our auditory system. That last statement was totally a joke, I'm only kidding!

I would very much appreciate your experience in helping me find a P4 2.26B, 2.4B, or 2.53B which will reach beyond 3.0GHz. I'm inexperienced at interpreting Intel's coding, and I need to find a probable overclocker. I know you mentioned an AMD system, I already have two AMD rigs, i want to convert one to Intel. BTW I can tell by your posts you have significant expereince, probably more then I in many areas, especially motherboards. No hard feelings.

[Player0]

Hey, no hard feelings at all. I was just enjoying a friendly debate with someone who obviously knows a lot about what they were talking about. The fact that we're from two obviously different schools of thought is what lead us here, and as you said, NO one seems to agree on anything in the audio world. Why? Because it's all subjective. People hear things different ways. In fact, people have different musical tastes. I like harsh sounding music, distortion, techno-electronica sounding music. Most of which is more easily reproduced than say the suttle undertones of acoustal or jazz or something like that. I listen to CDs, MP3s, and other compressed music formats which aren't perfect quality to begin with, and garbage in, garbage out as they say. Most of my time is spent hunting down audio hiss and 60hz line noise as i have tons of (actually good quality) wiring running all over the house to the PC because I have a neat little media-center thing running. In the end, I really was just trying to help you pick out a motherboard/CPU combination, as I really don't like AOpen boards. But, as I said before, everyone likes their own thing, and when you do get the Aopen board, I'd love for you to review it ;)

Get a hyperthreading CPU. That's really the key. Regarding overclockign and CPU serial codes. Meh, thats not an exact science. Even if you could pick out the exact serial number you wanted, theres no guarantee that that chip is going to overclock any better. But you're really stuck with luck-of-the-draw anyway. I'm thinking of getting a P4 2.8C HT chip soon, which can be found for pretty cheap, and i've seen lots of reports of them hitting 3.2-3.3mhz easy with stock cooling. That P4 2.4 HT sounds interesting as well, but it's risky. It might not overclock as well, and 2.4g is SLOW beleive me. I have dual 2.4g Xeons at home and they aren't the best gamers. They aren't overclocked at all...if you want a serious P4 box, you need at least 2.8g. If you spend the extra funds and get the P4 2.8, you're assured a well performing system even if you dont clock it much. I'd personally go that route, if you can afford it.

[Liquid3D]

Thanks Player0 and not to over do it, but I really am sorry for some of the judgements I made. Sometimes I can be hard headed, and there's no way I can learn unless I remain open.

AOpen isn't a name I would normally consider, if it weren't for their experimenting with the tube section. I haven't owned a Pentium system in three years, but for AMD I usually buy among three board makers, Abit, Epox, Asus, and I like Gigabyte, but they lack in overclocking features (or did on my GA7VRX). Considering this is such a radical idea for AOpen to push. I wonder how legit the reviews are? I'm actually re-thinking it again, because of my budget. There's probably a budget P4 Hyperthreading (800FSB upgradable) mobo for much less. The AOpen is $137 at the lowest, and $170 - $209 for the norm. And, I can't even find the AX4PE, only the AX4B. I could probably find a decent no frills mobo for $100, save money and get an integratred tube amp down the road. Although I became defensive, I may be thanking you in the near future. I'm beginning to what onder how much of a difference a single tube can make when fed into a Monsoon solid state control amp subwofer/satellite system anyway? And one thing i did pick up on, was that a reviewer t quality. The Audigy probably uses better DAC's, and being that crtically close to the source, where the D/An decoding takes place, if the AOpen spec's low-budget DAC's even 300B single ended trodies won't smooth out the metalic, thiness of that sound.

As far as the 2.4C, or 2.8C. I'm afraid that may be out of my budget. I really can't spend more then $200, because I'm disabled and this comes out of a $600 Social Security Disability check. I used to make much more then $600 weekly, which is by no means great money now a day's so imagine living off $600 per month! All I can say is thank God there are kind people in the world!

[Player0]

Hey, I'm hardheaded all the time, don't worry about it :)

The Aopen and the Gigabyte are really gonna be close in terms of features. I tell you though, for a price of $100-$110, you can't beat the Abit IS7 motherboard that just came out. I'm seriously thinking of getting one myself. Its 865PE based, which means it's the second fastest motherboard chipset on the market. It's also dirt cheap. It's the same as the Abit IC7 (875P based) except it lacks PAT and ECC support. Its about 3-5% slower on average than the 875P based boards. But for half the cost...shoot, it's a deal thats hard to pass up.

Any dual-channel Intel board, be it 7205 or 865 or 875 is going to require matching pairs of DDR ram.

The P4 2.4 HT 800mhz CPU is $180. The P4 2.4 533mhz standard is about $155. So the HT CPU with 800mhz is only $25 more. If the regular P4 was going to fit your budget, surely you can save up another $25 :)

The P4 2.4G 800mhz HT CPU and Abit IS7 motherboard will cost $300 together. Another $120 for a good pair of 256m Corsair DDR sticks, and you will have a smoking budget PC :) And a very good overclocker as well, depending on what kind of ram you get.

[Drake]

Kingston HyperX and TwinMOS are also good sticks with a slight price advantage over Corsair, but by all means get Corsair if possible.

[Liquid3D]

I contacted Kinsgton, waiting for reply, there's someone at Xtremesys who just attained 519MHzDDR with Kingston 3500 at 3.2V, which is as close to frying the modules as one can get whithout cooling; http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=149396#post149396

[Drake]

NewEgg (http://www.newegg.com) has a holiday special, selling 2.4GHz 800MHz FSB P4's for $180.

Check it out here (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?refer=hardforum&description=19-116-158)

[Player0]

Yep, thats where I got mine :)

[Liquid3D]

Well Player0 it's funny how you meet people. I'm glad I'm learning not to be a complete ass, or I wouldn't have benefitted from your wisdom. I'm ordering one of those 2.4C's for $180 shipped, tomorrow and then ordering the ABIT IS7-E ,Intel 865PE Springdale RETAIL 865PE / ICH5 , FSB:800/533MHz, RAM:4x DDR Single/Dual Channel DDR 400 up to 4GB.

That's the best I can afford for a motherboard what do think of it?

BTW: thank you, I'm glad we worked out that little brain banging session. Funny thing is, had I not taken your advice I'd ended up with an outdated $170 AOpen mobo, and a $169, 2.4B (SL6EF)which would have cost over $300, whicle the combo from Newegg costs $280, but gives me the Springdale chipset, dual DDR, 800FSB! And someoen at Xtremesysis running their 2.4C at 3500MHz! The only thing that concerns me is the SL6EF 2.4B's are overclocking to as high as 3.9GHz.

[Player0]

I like the IS7 :) Its a great bang-for-buck board. I dont have one yet, but Ill have an IC7 soon, which is a kissing cousin.

4ghz sounds nice. The closest I've come is two 2.4g xeons in a dually :) I dont think that counts though.

I doubt the 3500 or 3900mhz overclocks were done with stock air cooling. As i continue with overclocking machines, I kind of discovered that the highest overclocks aren't worth it. Usually overclock = loud, and my ears cant take it anymore. So now I focus on quiet PCs, but still powerful. It's a much more delicate balance. I wont get my CPUs as high, but ill end up with a system I can live with daily.

Id still get the P4 2.4c...the higher FSB has benefits for sure...and Im not sure the 2.4b has hyperthreading. Hyperthreading really does give a huge improvement, especially when running background tasks like Folding @ Home all the time. Hyperthreading makes those kinds of tasks almost transparent, especially handy with Windows XP which just decides to steal CPu cycles randomly.

[Liquid3D]

I didn't mean to imply this at all. The 3.(GHz was done with phase-change I'm almost positive. And the second overclock I talked about wasn't a 3500MHz overclock, it was a 518MHzDDR, or 259FSB using Kinsgton PC3500, here's the specs (yes it's water cooled NB as well); AIUHB2100 @ 2.60ghz water cooled cpu/chipset cooled. 750 gph pump and 130gph pump 2.15.vcpu/2.14v.chipset/ram.3.2v, abit nf7modded kingston3500@490/500mhz.

I'm seeing people attaining 277FSB (see here, post # 183 (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9924&perpage=25&pagenumber=8)) how do they do this? Are these Beta BIOS's which allow say 275 or 300? I thought nForce2 chipset's were capped at 250FSB?

[Ruantic]

I'm seeing people attaining 270FSB, how do they do this? Are these Beta BIOS's which allow say 275 or 300? I thought nForce2 chipset's were capped at 250FSB?


The new Abit NF7-S, and Asus A7N8X both have up to 300 fsb selectable in bios, Highest I've seen an Nforce2 board go so far is 260, Anything above that I've seen has all been done on a new Cantewood or Springdale.. Not saying it hasn't happened, just I haven't seen it......

[Liquid3D]

Check THIS (post # 183) (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9924&perpage=25&pagenumber=8) out. By the way Ruantic how do like your OCZ has it been overclocking well? And do you agree, it uses the least amount of voltage then most other to overclock?

[Ruantic]

Originally posted by Liquid3D
Check THIS (post # 183) (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9924&perpage=25&pagenumber=8) out. By the way Ruantic how do like your OCZ has it been overclocking well? And do you agree, it uses the least amount of voltage then most other to overclock?


Yeah, ok, thats why i missed it, I quit following the NF2 bandwidth thread when it grew to over 3 pages, lol, that Kazama screenie @ 270 something, isn't real impressive without more to back it up, but still an acomplishment. As for the OCZ, I'm actually not real thrilled about it, decent memory and all but I had higher expectations. I guess my single stick of Samsung PC2700 which will run 228 with decent timing has spoiled me, I'm hoping the new 3700 Gold OCZ will do well, As for voltage its really not much different than any of my other memory. I just ordered a couple sticks of Geil Golden Dragon, I'm hoping it does better then my OCZ.....

[Liquid3D]

Well I like to thank my new found friends here at "H20-martial artists.com" for assiting me in choosing a new Intel setup! I'd especially like to thank Player0 who I was having audiophile flashbacks with. If it weren't for him, i'd be running a 2.4B, and AOpen Tube mobo, for the one dam tube (I'll just buy a tube and hot glue it to my Audigy). Becuase of his advice and few other's I purchased a P4 2.4C at Newegg today, for $179.99 shipped (I hope 30 day warranty is adequate) and I'm now trying to wrangle up either the Abit IS7-E Springdale, or the IC7-G Canterwood, which I'll hopefully have by next Saturday. I'm really psyched. Thank's Ruantic, Player0, Drake, and especially mdzcpa who introduced me to LiquidNinjas! Thanx all.

Man I hope I can get my 2.4C to reach beyond 3,oGHz, seems like almost everyone who's purchased one has acheived at least 3.0GHz! I do wonder though if the Performance Acceleration Technology of the 875 gives significant performance over the 865? ExtremeOC seems to think PAT is primarily for Workstation environment, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't benefit other functions? Anyway both the IS7-E, and IC7-G offer 412Mhz FSB BIOS, 800FSB support, HT, and Duall DDR 400.

[Drake]

It's been proven that PAT only offers a meager lead in performance, so you're not missing much.

Besides, many have seen i865 mobos clock higher than their big brothers. Canterwood or Springdale, you can't go wrong :D

[mdzcpa]

Originally posted by Drake
Besides, many have seen i865 mobos clock higher than their big brothers. Canterwood or Springdale, you can't go wrong :D

Stay tuned, though...interesting results are coming out of all this. For example, OPP's Asus Springdale board overclocks higher than any other Canterwood board he has tried, but comes solidly in last place in 3D apps....even with the max FSB advantage. Not is all as it seems with the Springdale boards. The current theory is that the Springdale (which is nothing more than a non validated Canterwood) has been mega tweaked at stock speeds, but has very relaxed timings at higher FSB speeds.

Stay tuned...the story is just unfolding now....

[Liquid3D]

Do you belive my decision to buy a 2.4C, over a 2.4B was a wise one? I was impressed to find the SL6EF (which can be found at eXcaliper $169) overclocked to 3900+Mhz, and 3600MHz on air!

But I've yet to see a 2.4C user who hasn't reached 3GHz at default voltages which is miraculous!

[Ruantic]

Originally posted by Liquid3D
Do you belive my decision to buy a 2.4C, over a 2.4B was a wise one? I was impressed to find the SL6EF (which can be found at eXcaliper $169) overclocked to 3900+Mhz, and 3600MHz on air!

But I've yet to see a 2.4C user who hasn't reached 3GHz at default voltages which is miraculous!


I think you've made a sound decision, the 2.4b may see a bit higher clock speed, although the extra performance of the higher fsb, HT, and the fact you've given yourself more options for future upgrade outweigh the higher clock speed IMO.

[Liquid3D]

Thanx for alleviating my breif foray into stupidity. HT, 800FSB and compatibility with 865/875 chipsets are some large benefits. Especially as I just had the "clock speed" debate over at my "TBread" post where someone tried to reduce it into burnt toast. I still struggle with the quad pumped 100FSB as oppsed to the falling clock edge, of 133FSB. But it's not 100FSB it's 200FSB quad pumped, and that's like running what I'm currently running, except Hyper Threaded, which should allow for background app's not slowing foreground.

For example, I had the urge to play UT2003 while a freidn dropped by, just to show him the graphics, and I had to shut down my internet connection for the game to run without stuttering. Although I've backed down the clock speed to 2000MHz or 10x201FSB. Do you think I'm going to see a significant performance increase with the P4 2.4C, and 865/875 compared with my current 2.0GHz 200FSB with nForce2 chipset?

[Drake]

Paired with good RAM, you won't believe the performance increase :)